extra attacks from init instead of BAB?

[woodelf]

Just thought i'd toss this idea out here, and see if it can swim (or somesuch mangled metaphor):

So, i thought i'd see if i could make "D&D" the way *i* want it. That is, stick with the basic idea of D&D (as i see it)--high fantasy, over-the-top, sort of videogame-y, more its own genre than a good emulator of any narrow set of literature, etc. One of the things that i'd like to fix is that you can't really trade mobility for power, or, more generally, # of attacks for power of attack. IOW, those who are making the most attacks are also making the most powerful/effective attacks (loosely speaking, since both are based off of BAB). There was a system Back In The Day in Dragon (#76?) that i tweaked for AD&D2. The basic idea was to fix the then-current standard for multiple attacks by rolling initiative and multiple attacks up into one. What about doing something similar in D&D3E? You could just use the BAB, with Dex and appropriate feats and maybe a new weapon stat, to figure initiative, and then for every -5 step you can get off of BAB, you get another attack. Or maybe every -10--i'm making this up as i write. Anyway, you'd then get all your attacks at your full BAB, instead of stepping that down with each attack (which is why i'm thinking maybe space out additional attacks a bit more).

Take this a step further, and give all classes a new stat, like BAB, for initiative, or just init bonuses/penalties, and you could give monks the "more favorable number of attacks" without them having to have a super-high BAB or their own attack staging. Seems like an improvement to me.

Comments? Problems? Suggestions? [Yes, i'm aware it wouldn't create exactly the same combat effectiveness as the current system, possibly screwing up CRs. But assuming everyone's using it...]

 

[Morgenstern]

You should really take a look at the fluid initiative system in the Modern Arms Guide for Spycraft. Basically certain things you do in combat can increase your initiative total (refreshing adds +5, not increases your roll to 20, and can be done multiple times). You can also lose init from things like being knocked on your butt by an explosion. The pay off is when you get your initiative to 30 or higher, you can trade in 20 points of it for an attack (or move if you want) action on your total, then you take the rest of your round normally at your new lower total (after losing 20 from your total). The whole system is laid out in the first chapter. Check it out !

 

[Morgenstern]

I should point out that the Spycraft classes do have a column for initiative bonus from class & level. There are also some classes that have abiites that tie into this system, like the triggerman who gets +1 inititive every time he shoots someone (cause he's just so fluid and quick). The capoeira martial arts style does the same with unarmed attacks. The tactician adds 5+ his Int bonus to his initiative total when he refreshes, and some other examples of being quick being as important as any other value you can bring to a fight .

 

[Arc]

Yeah, Spycraft has some really beautiful rules for non-standard stuff. I find the chase rules (gorgeous) can be adapted for mounted chases, and many of the feats (improvised weaponry, for example), can be easily transfered over to regular dnd. It's a great system, in my opinion miles above d20 modern.

 

[woodelf]

You should really take a look at the fluid initiative system in the Modern Arms Guide for Spycraft. Basically certain things you do in combat can increase your initiative total (refreshing adds +5, not increases your roll to 20, and can be done multiple times). You can also lose init from things like being knocked on your butt by an explosion. The pay off is when you get your initiative to 30 or higher, you can trade in 20 points of it for an attack (or move if you want) action on your total, then you take the rest of your round normally at your new lower total (after losing 20 from your total). The whole system is laid out in the first chapter. Check it out !

I should point out that the Spycraft classes do have a column for initiative bonus from class & level. There are also some classes that have abiites that tie into this system, like the triggerman who gets +1 inititive every time he shoots someone (cause he's just so fluid and quick). The capoeira martial arts style does the same with unarmed attacks. The tactician adds 5+ his Int bonus to his initiative total when he refreshes, and some other examples of being quick being as important as any other value you can bring to a fight

You know, now that you mention it...
I seem to have not even noticed the Init column in Spycraft (i've read it, but never played it). And, yeah, Spycraft *so* rocks. I don't even like the genre, generally, and it's got me jonesing for a game.

The FLGS didn't have a copy of the Modern Arms Guide in, but i think i understand the basic idea: it's basically the same as the Attack Priority system for AD&D. Only difference is that, in keeping with 1e, you rolled init each round, then ticked off a certain amount and got another attack if your total was still positive. With the fluid init system you're describing, there's no random element (after the first round), but it's still about combining init and # of attacks. I like it even better.

But i'm not sure it feels "right" for D&D. It seems too realistic, frankly. This is a game that doesn't have discrete damage, discrete hit locations, or discrete attacks, so giving them discrete timing seems sorta strange. If you simply have a (mostly-) static number of attacks staggered through the round, it's still following the D&D mold of each "attack" being an amalgamation of whatever has happened for that unit of time. The staggering is as much for metagame reasons (everybody takes turns, rather than one and then the next) as it is for realism reasons. Interspersing actions also allows a lot of things that the freezeframe of standard D&D doesn't--like goading someone by running up to them, smacking them, and running away. Though it sounds like the fluid init system does that to. Someone in another thread proposed the variable attack staging of Everquest D20, too, and that solves several similar problems. So now i have to go think a bit, and try things out. Unless anyone has any further comments/suggestions?

 

[Aazenius]

Cinematic Fighting using Initiative

Empty post... sorry

 

[Stalker0]

I like the idea of being able to get multiple attacks in the first round of combat, basically if you react MUCH faster than an opponent (in other words, have a much higher initiative, maybe 10 or so) then you could get another attack in the first round. After the first round, it would be back to normal with BAB.

That makes having a high initiative more important, and it becomes more than just beating the opponent at initiative, but how much.