Extra d20s & On-the-Fly Equipment

[Theo R Cwithin]

I guess a little bit of both, as well as tweaking the noses of those DMs who have draconian, if-it-ain't-written-down-you-don't-have-it equipment policies. I mean, this makes sense for magical items, for example, but for relatively mundane equipment? Meh.

Well, the idea is a really nifty one, it just needs a better defined purpose, imho.

If going for the very low-cost things that can't be resold (like the green thread in my example), then a feat, without the virtual gp "bank" would suffice, IMHO. This would have more RP utility, though, rather than mechanical utility.

If actual functionality is the goal (eg, the grappling hook), then I think your way is a good start. I do think it could change the flavor of a campaign without some buy-in, though. But that buy-in might be as simple as basing it on real funds rather than "virtual" ones, at the PC's option: the gold really is spent (to a max amount); it's just left open exactly what it was spent on until the moment of need arises. The idea is "Of course the battle-hardened dungeon delver bought a ____ ; he knows what he's doing way better than some silly accountant in Iowa who pretends to be an elf at his kitchen table once a week!"

And if the goal is to avoid unfun untimely PC death or a prematurely wrecked campaign, then you might even consider allowing select low-power magic items in the mix as well (if the campaign can support it). The rationale here is that some things, like cure potions, are effectively "mundane" equipment in some settings-- and having an extra one at the right moment can potentially save a campaign.

At that point, it's almost getting into the same realm of utility as your "Extra d20" idea.... So maybe the two could be combined: cash out a d20 in the pool for an SRD item of less than (eg) 10xLevel gp or something. If worried that PCs will sell items on, attach a "karmic caveat" that such items are always mysteriously lost within 24 hours.

Whoa! Memory spike! You've reminded me that I wrote a Packrat prestige class for one of Fantasy Flight Games's books. Path of Shadow, IIRC. I'll have to dig out my copy and check that out.

Glad to be of service!



And FWIW, this thread has got a little bug in the back of my brain whispering to me ways of reworking the whole notion of "equipment" around something akin to this, so I can run a fast & furious one-shot dungeon delve with plentiful Hammer Space! Hee hee! )

 

[Hawken]

1. Is it a good idea? Why or why not?
2. What is the mechanic for replenishing a depleted dice pool?

Yes, its a good idea as long as there is a reasonable limit to its use. There are plenty of obvious reasons for it, especially when there are a lot of situations where the success/failure of the game or the life/death of a character hinges on a single roll of the dice.

I would suggest though that in addition to the players having a 'pool' of dice to use that the DM use a similar pool for the characters. There are plenty of situations that the DM is aware of that players would be ignorant of, where a roll of the dice might determine whether the PC becomes aware of a particular event or piece of information and nothing gives the game away more than the DM saying, "Ok, everyone make a Spot/Listen/Search check".

However, there is a flaw in your d20 idea that I haven't seen mentioned by anyone so far. That flaw is that your d20 pool is no longer a resource or helpful if the extra rolls fail also. At that point, the pool is useless--providing no value to the PC at all. If you fail a roll and your d20 extra roll fails also, you've accomplished nothing, mitigated nothing, and just expended a 'resource'--to do nothing!

Instead, I would suggest a model like Star Wars Saga Edition rules or SW d20 rules. You get a number of d6 rolls to ADD to your d20 roll. The number of dice is level dependent and increases every 4 or 5 levels. Since these rolls ADD to your base roll, even a critical failure can be mitigated to a 'miss' or just a regular failure while a regular success could possibly become an exceptional result.

Similar to SWSE, you could replenish these points when a new level is gained, or when the character performs an act of sacrifice (taking a hit for another player), or an act of dramatic heroism (swinging across a chasm with the princess in your arms). In this method, characters gain 5 uses + 1 use per 2 character levels and each use grants 1 d6 bonus to a roll per 4 or 5 levels.

The drawback to this method though is that it can take a long time to level up, so points can be expended rather quickly and leave a long time before more are gained. An alternate would be to allow maybe 1 use of this dice pool per 5 character levels and have the points replenish each day. The character can use the bonus dice less often on a daily basis, but the next day, they are back to being their 'heroic' selves and able to do things that most people cannot.

@ On the fly equipment:
This is a good idea and one I've used in my games for many years. The way I've done it is that I require players to inventory any special items--masterwork, alchemical, magical, anything with special properties or qualities or that provides some bonus to the character. But for mundane things (backpack, mirror, fish hooks, etc.), I allow my players to list a gp value worth of mundane equipment.

D&D has always been about resource management and risk/waste; managing spells, whether to use expendable items (potion of healing, etc.), whether you have enough hit points to keep fighting or if you should instead retreat. I have never believed that the creators of the game ever intended for the game to be bogged down by whether your character has a whetstone in his pack or if he has enough fish hooks for everyone in the group camped at the river to be able to fish for their own dinner. The game is about adventure and fun, and writing down every single item in your backpack or pouches is neither adventurous nor fun.

In my game, if a character needs a length of rope and a grappling hook, I'm going to assume that those items are part of the PC's "200gp of mundane items". I do not want players wasting valuable time deciding whether they will need a small mirror in their pack or not. I do not want the game bogged down or brought to a crashing halt because they didn't bring enough rope or someone forgot a grappling hook. It may not be practical for every player to have a collapsible tent in their pack, but if one or two of them are so inclined, I don't mind. It may stretch "game-reality", but at the end of the adventure, no one is going to be thinking, "hey how did Fred the Halfling Rogue fit a tent into his backpack?", they are thinking about how much fun they had, about the bad guy they beat, or about the treasure they found.

Exceptions are for things like weapons (arrows, daggers, etc.). Characters do have to inventory armor and weapons in addition to exceptional items, but mundane items, I've never required my characters to track things like whether their boots are hard or soft, if their cloak is a cape or a fur-lined garment designed for warmth. If they want something, as long as they've spent some money on mundane gear, I'm treating it like they've got it.

 

[Mark Chance]

However, there is a flaw in your d20 idea that I haven't seen mentioned by anyone so far. That flaw is that your d20 pool is no longer a resource or helpful if the extra rolls fail also.

....

Instead, I would suggest a model like Star Wars Saga Edition rules or SW d20 rules. You get a number of d6 rolls to ADD to your d20 roll.

Putting aside whether the flaw is really a flaw or a feature )), I think you've made a great counterpoint with the SW rules (which I haven't ever looked at).

Question just to make sure I'm clear: A player can use more than 1d6 on a single d20 roll?

 

[Hawken]

Putting aside whether the flaw is really a flaw or a feature (), I think you've made a great counterpoint with the SW rules (which I haven't ever looked at).

I'm going to stand by my point that it is a flaw. Reason being is that the entire point of this optional rule is to provide a benefit to characters, namely being able to effectively reroll a bad roll. Yes, I know, you roll 2 d20s, and take the better result, but the effect is largely the same. You're not going to throw a second d20 if the first is sufficient.

But, if the second roll fails, you still fail. That's not a resource or useful at all.

My point is that the SWSE method is superior in that you may still fail, but even the poorest result is still added to your failing roll, so there is always some use to it, some mitigation; the roll can offset penalties to give a better chance of success, etc.. If you miss a roll by only 2 points, a reroll could still fail while a bonus d6 would more likely than not turn that failure into a success and a 2d6 or higher roll would ensure success without risk of failure.

A player can use more than 1d6 on a single d20 roll?

That depends on your character level. Per the SWSE rules, I believe per use you get 1d6 to add to your roll if you are level 1-5; at 6-10, you get 2d6 to add, etc.

 

[Mark Chance]

That depends on your character level. Per the SWSE rules, I believe per use you get 1d6 to add to your roll if you are level 1-5; at 6-10, you get 2d6 to add, etc.

Hmm. I'm not sure I like that. I like the idea of the player having X number of XdX, and then being able to choose how many of those dice to use. Of course, that's a minor tweak.

Regardless, more food for thought.

 

[Celebrim]

I'm going to stand by my point that it is a flaw. Reason being is that the entire point of this optional rule is to provide a benefit to characters, namely being able to effectively reroll a bad roll. Yes, I know, you roll 2 d20s, and take the better result, but the effect is largely the same. You're not going to throw a second d20 if the first is sufficient.

But, if the second roll fails, you still fail. That's not a resource or useful at all.

My point is that the SWSE method is superior in that you may still fail, but even the poorest result is still added to your failing roll, so there is always some use to it, some mitigation; the roll can offset penalties to give a better chance of success, etc.. If you miss a roll by only 2 points, a reroll could still fail while a bonus d6 would more likely than not turn that failure into a success and a 2d6 or higher roll would ensure success without risk of failure.

My rules are drawn from alot of ideas, including SWSE, and I actually let you use your dice pull to do either one: reroll a die or add 1d6 to any die thrown.

There are times when you are going to want to do either one. Sometimes a reroll is nice. Sometimes adding 1d6 is nice.

I think your logic suffers from the following problem. Yes, it is true that if the reroll fails that you spent a resource and got nothing. But, it is also true that if you throw a low value on the base dice, the addition of a 1d6 to the dice is likely to be wasted as well. The addition of a d6 to the base dice is only helpful if you failed by less than the result of the d6. Otherwise the resource is again wasted. So, there are times when buying dice is going to be wasted however you treat it.

But for the case of only failing on a 1 or only succeeding on a 20, a reroll is pretty much strictly better than adding an dice to the result to the result unless you add an extra benefit like, '1 is no longer an automatic failure if you buy a dice'.

I played alot of Bloodbowl once upon a time. A reroll can have a huge value.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

My point is that the SWSE method is superior in that you may still fail, but even the poorest result is still added to your failing roll, so there is always some use to it, some mitigation;

Interesting. I rather like the (1d20 OR 1d20) method, precisely because it doesn't mitigate! To my mind, if two rolls fail, then the PC was truly meant to fail. That's what I meant by "fateful" in my first post on this topic. To each his own, I suppose.

@Mark: I believe the SWSE rules for this are more or less like the UA "Action Point" variant for modifying dice rolls. (Hawken, correct me if I'm wrong on that. I haven't looked at SWSE in a long time!)

 

[garrowolf]

They are called Hero Points!

You are basically recreating Hero Points. Just look up some hero points rules instead and figure out one you like.

A better way to deal with the equipment thing is to have packs for each skill that your character has. If they have climbing then they get a climbing pack. If they have first aid then they get a med kit. etc. You don't have to define everything in each pack. If they say that they want to use something from one of their packs in a novel way then go for it. If they want to pull a ladder out of their climbing pack then say no.

They get this at character creation and are assumed to buy replacements when they go to town. Having them say, "well I would have bought rope" is one thing but if they have an adventurer pack then you can say "oh that makes sense to be in there".

Now an amusing alternative to this is you can do the gold into equipment by having a pair of magic sacks. You give one to an NPC shopkeeper and you keep the other one. Then you place the money in there with a note, "I need 10 feet of rope". Then close the bag. It will reappear in the other bag and the shopkeeper can put the rope in and it will be in your bag.

This would be even better if you have a trusted NPC and a series of these bags. You could do your looting easier and store your stuff in there for later!