Extra Damage & Bonus Damage

[RigaMortus2]

Couple quick questions...

Is there a difference between Extra Damage and Bonus damage?

If you have a feat that adds extra damage to an attack, and you crit, does the extra damage get multiplied?

If you have a feat that adds bonus damage to an attack, and you crit, does the bonus damage get multiplied?

If you have an insight bonus to damage, and you crit, does the insight bonus damage get multiplied?

Now the feat which lead me to these questions, is called Psycarnum Blade. It states:

Once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat. You can expend your psionic focus when making an attack with your mind blade to gain an insight bonus on the damage roll equal to 1d6 per point of invested essentia. You must decide whether or not to use this feat prior to making the attack roll. If your attack misses, you still expend your psionic focus. Once the amount of essentia invested is chosen, it cannot be altered and remains invested for 24 hours.

So (if you haven't guessed by now) my question is, since it is worded as such, if you crit with your mind blade, would the "insight bonus on the damage roll" be multiplied?

Any advice/rules quotes that would help clear this up would be appreciated.

 

[ValhallaGH]

In this case, no. The bonus damage is a variable (1d6 per essentia), and variable bonus, or extra, damage is never multiplied on a critical hit. Static bonus, or extra, damage, no matter the source, is always multiplied on a critical hit unless is specifically says otherwise (I don't know of anything that fills this exception).

That should answer all your questions.

 

[RigaMortus2]

In this case, no. The bonus damage is a variable (1d6 per essentia), and variable bonus, or extra, damage is never multiplied on a critical hit. Static bonus, or extra, damage, no matter the source, is always multiplied on a critical hit unless is specifically says otherwise (I don't know of anything that fills this exception).

That should answer all your questions.

I am pretty sure you are right, but do you know where I can find the rules on this? I looked in the FAQ, glossary (under bonus and extra damage), and in the PHB, but couldn't seem to locate it.

I have found the places which call out specifics, such as Sneak Attack and special weapon properties such as Flaming do not multiple when you crit. I can't seem to find the rules on multiplying "extra damage dice" or however they word it.

The strange thing about the feat is, it is an insight bonus to the damage roll. And insight bonuses get multiplied on crits. This happens to be an insight bonus that can be anywhere between 1 to 6 (x the amount of essentia invested). Now had it been worded similiar to Sneak Attack "You gain extra damage equal to 1d6 per point of invested essentia" there would be no question.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I am pretty sure you are right, but do you know where I can find the rules on this? I looked in the FAQ, glossary (under bonus and extra damage), and in the PHB, but couldn't seem to locate it.

PHB, page 140, bottom of the page ("Critical Hits" sidebar).

Also, look up "critical hit" in the glossary; it specifies that extra damage dice are not multiplied.

 

[RigaMortus2]

PHB, page 140, bottom of the page ("Critical Hits" sidebar).

Also, look up "critical hit" in the glossary; it specifies that extra damage dice are not multiplied.

Thanks, that is what I was looking for (the side bar).

My only complaint is, the sidebar specifies that "extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt by sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit".

Power Attack and Smite is "extra damage" that is over and beyond a weapon's normal damage. Does this mean it is not multiplied with a critical? This side bar does not specify extra damage dice...

Now the glossary does specify extra damage dice is not multiplied. But what in the case of spells/powers/special abilities whose damage is improved via extra damage dice? One example I can think of is Energy Ray, a 1st level power in Expanded Psionics Handbook. It deals 1d6 damage of an energy type you specify. It can be augmented to boost it's damage. Every 1pp you spend increased the damage by 1d6. This would be extra damage dice. So if we augmented it using 2pp (+2d6) and you crit, would the damage be 6d6 [1d6 base +2d6 augmented x2 for crit], or 4d6 [1d6 base x2 crit +2d6 augmented]?

 

[Vegepygmy]

Power Attack and Smite is "extra damage" that is over and beyond a weapon's normal damage. Does this mean it is not multiplied with a critical? This side bar does not specify extra damage dice...

You know what? I really don't know what the PHB authors were trying to say by "extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage." The extra damage you inflict as a result of your Str bonus is certainly "damage over and above a weapon's normal damage," as is the +1 or more damage inflicted by a weapon with an enhancement bonus, yet I'm pretty sure those were meant to be multiplied.

But I've been using the "constant bonuses are mutliplied, extra dice are not" interpretation for a long time, and it seems to work pretty well. At least it's a clear rule. So FWIW, I suggest you go with that.

 

[Notmousse]

So if we augmented it using 2pp (+2d6) and you crit, would the damage be 6d6 [1d6 base +2d6 augmented x2 for crit], or 4d6 [1d6 base x2 crit +2d6 augmented]?

You would multiply the entire damage by two for two reasons. First, as an augment it is treated as part of the original power. Second as a spell it is not a weapon, so has no 'weapon damage' to exceed.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

The extra damage you inflict as a result of your Str bonus is certainly "damage over and above a weapon's normal damage,"

Yes, but isn't that "normal" damage? After all, most normal melee weapons add your Str bonus to damage. Something like cold or fire damage would be abnormal, wouldn't it? (as in, if you have a Str mod you apply it to melee weapon damage for normal weapons; adding energy damage isn't normally applied)

 

[Hypersmurf]

You know what? I really don't know what the PHB authors were trying to say by "extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage."

I've always considered it a 'word accidentally omitted'; if you insert the word 'dice' between 'damage' and 'over', it agrees with all the other references in 3.5, and matches the 3E rule.

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Another possible way to rule it/play it would be to use the dice to determine the insight bonus, and then double that result on the crit.

If you got a flat +1 insight bonus to damage, and you crit, this would become +2 (insight) damage.

Now, by the wording of the feat, it is an insight bonus. Although you are rolling a die to determine what this bonus is, it isn't worded as "extra damage dice".

So on a crit, you'd roll 1d6 (per invested essentia) to determine the bonus, and then double that result. You'd still roll the weapon damage twice though.

I think, because of the wording, it IS different than bonus damage die you would get from a Sneak Attack or Flaming weapon enhancement.