Extra-Hard Encounters

[kaomera]

So, if a Hard encounter is 1 or 2 levels above the PCs then the Level+3 encounter suggested in the DMG as part of a standard "level's worth" of encounters is on the Extra-Hard side...

Now Level is not the only factor in an encounter's difficulty. And even an encounter's level can be subject to change - especially if what would normally be a separate encounter gets "dragged in" to the fight...

And then there's the matter of the party's current situation. An unexpected fight when they're low on surges, dailies, and action points could easily turn deadly, even if it wouldn't normally be a huge problem.

Two examples I've seen of this are the final encounter in the adventure in the DMG, where the party may well end up facing a hard fight when they aren't expecting it, and a series of encounters in Keep on the Shadowfell that can easily end up with a lot of extra monsters joining the fight. (And I admit that I haven't played through either of these adventures - I'm just working from comments I've seen.)

So, what I'm wondering is: How do you (or would you want to) deal with this in your games? Do you try to scale the encounter on the fly to what the PCs can handle, or do you simply let the PCs deal with the added adversity? Do you drop hints that now might be a good time to run for it? Would your players choose to retreat, anyway? And how difficult do you make it for them? Do you go out of your way to create situations where the danger of an encounter can escalate (does letting an enemy escape always mean he'll return with reinforcements?), or do you try to avoid it, or neither? Do you think the above examples are fair? Are there any specific encounters that you've seen that aren't fair, or which stretch the boundries?

 

[Rothe_]

I tend to drop hints. Preferably things that the party notices if they are being careful and if they try to find out stuff about the opposition in advance.

There is no real cure for stupidity. I don't even think there should be. The players will learn from their mistakes and next time they will come prepared.

I just try not to have extra tough encounters in a row when the players don't have any clue what is about to happen. If you do that, they become too wary of continuing without lots of daily powers and surges remaining and that makes the adventures a bit stale - the only fix is to have time limits or areas they cannot leave to rest.

Also, there is no reason to fight until you die. The PC's should occasionally retreat if the threat is too high.

 

[Dr_Sage]

Also, there is no reason to fight until you die. The PC's should occasionally retreat if the threat is too high.

I agree.

I tend to build extra hard encounters, but not many in a row.

I think it depends on the campaign. I think most modules lack a sense of urgency.

In many action movies the problem is not the heroes dying... they are not all afraid of that. There is aways something bigger for what they are fighting.

I try to bring that to my games, and the encounters become hard if the PCs havent rested, havent stopped, and are willing to sacrifice something for their goals.

Usually this sense of urgency makes any encounter 10 times more breathtaking if they know they cant fail or [insert bad result here, like village being raided by goblins].

Summing up: many encounters are fine, but try cinematic ones from time to time. They will be low on resourses and you will be able to see what they are made of.

 

[BlightCrawler]

First a note that a hard encounter is 2-4 levels above. Just 1 level above is considered standard. (Well, actually in the Encounter chapter it says 2-4 levels above, later in the Adventure chapter it says 2-3 levels above)

But anyway, for encounters with new creatures coming in, you may push it beyond the n + 4 guided max. I would not go too much higher. But if the additions are staggered, then it's more manageable than a straight n+5 might normally be. The hardest fight in Shadowfell (in my mind) is the one against Irontooth, which is n + 5, with a bulk of the difficulty coming in after 3 rounds. It starts with an even level fight, which is possible to reduce if not destroy before Irontooth arrives. The only thing I'd do differently is have a second warning at the beginning of the 3rd round as the reinforcements are about to arrive the next round. I didn't see what battle was supposed to be extra-hard in the DMG, the worst is n+3 (assuming 1st level).

I would give them some concrete warnings with almost any reinforcements. They hear an alarm, and then later the approaching of footsteps, or something like that. As it nears, I would tell them how many rounds they have, since that's something they could probably judge. In some cases the additions might be a total surprise. And in those, I would keep the encounter at or under n + 4.

I haven't had enemies who run away return as a part of reinforcements in the same encounter. If they do run away for this reason, it basically happens before combat even starts. The only time enemies run away without me designing it that way is if it's near the end of the combat and clear the PCs will win, and it would be boring to just mop up. If I do design it that way, I'd most likely do it because the one who got away is a main villain, so they've come back a little later.

Though I have also done combats that are designed to be too hard. A couple of months go I put a level 11 black dragon against a level 4 party. I basically told them that this thing looked way too tough and they needed to run, after a bit of trying to reason with it and assessing the situation. It was a skill challenge in actuality. But I set up the battle map and put down the counter with the dragon on it as if it were going to be a combat. They were sweating it and it was possibly the most fun encounter of the day.

Another option would be to give the PCs a quest for running away to survive if things get too hard and there's no reason for them to tough through it. Then they have a real choice. Stick it out, see if their luck turns around and get the combat XP, or escape and get the quest XP (which is probably less since it would likely be a minor quest).

 

[Orcus Porkus]

The more experienced the players, and the more balanced the party, the the higher you should go.

I tend to add a level or two to the difficulty if I see stuff like: 2 leaders, or 1 fighter who knows what he's doing, or a party very well equipped with items and where every player is optimized to the rim.

In these situations an encounter designed by the guidelines can easily turn out to be too weak.