Extra Smiting - why +4 BAB prerequisite?

[Quasqueton]

The feat Extra Smite in the Complete Warrior is a great idea, because paladins just don't get enough smites normally. (Heck, even monks get their level in stunning attacks per day.) But the prerequisites for Extra Smite includes a +4 BAB. That means that the paladin has to wait till 6th level to take it. By 6th level, the paladin has gotten a second smite per day anyway. Why in the world can't a paladin get Extra Smite at say 3rd level, or even 1st level? At the lower levels, smiting is almost inconsequential (an extra +1 to +3 damage, if the attack hits). But multiple opportunities would at least make it worth remember to use it.

Is there some greatness to smite evil that I don't see, that would support having to wait to 6th level (where smiting is actually only starting to get worth it) to get an extra couple uses?

Quasqueton

 

[Mac Callum]

Not from where I'm standing, but I guess the thought was that Paladins don't get more than 1 Smite/day until Level X, and they aren't going to change it.

I'd allow it though, just like I'd allow a 1st level Cleric to take Extra Turning.

 

[Psiblade]

The bonus on the attack roll is more important at low levels. Bonuses on attack rolls are hard to come by.

-Psiblade

 

[Ranger REG]

Probably the same reason fighters get weapon specialization at 4th level (i.e., prereq BAB +4) at the earliest (using one of the bonus feats). Oh, and you get TWO extra smiting per day (for a total of 3) instead of one, as was in the old 3e splatbook, DotF. And you can take this feat multiple times.

 

[drnuncheon]

Extra Smiting's BAB requirement of +4 allows clerics to get it at 6th level, too. If they made it higher, then clerics would have to wait until 9th, and if they made it lower, then paladins would be able to get it at 3rd. I would guess the designers settled on 6th level as when it should be introduced, and chose the BAB so that everyone eligible could get it then.

J

 

[Darklone]

I wouldn't worry about Extra Smiting at level 4 as a paladin, Divine Might not yet at level 3 annoys me much more.

 

[Quasqueton]

Just checked some comparisons (somebody double check me on this, I'm having memory problems this morning):

The monk gets another stunning attack every level.
The Extra Stunning Attack feat gives another 3? stuns per day with no BAB prerequisite.

The barbarian gets 1 rage per day to start, then an extra rage per day every four levels.
The Extra Rage feat gives another 2 rages per day with no BAB prerequisite.
The Extend Rage feats gives another 5 rounds of each rage with no BAB prerequisite.

The paladin gets 1 smite evil per day to start, then an extra smite every five levels.
The Extra Smite feat gives another 2 smites per day but with a +4 BAB prerequisite - so not available till 6th-level or later.


Am I the only one who sees this as giving the paladin the very short end of the stick?

At 3rd level, a monk can get 5 stunning attacks per day.

At 3rd level, a barbarian can be raging 3 times a day for at least 10 rounds each time. Hell, a human barbarian could be doing this at 1st level.

But the paladin at 3rd level still only has 1 lousy smite per day. And at 3rd level, that's just +3 attack and +3 damage one time. Once! Not until 5th level can the paladin do it a second time.

How is this right/balanced/fair?

Quasqueton

 

[Ranger REG]

Just checked some comparisons (somebody double check me on this, I'm having memory problems this morning):

You should take that One-A-Day pill that helps your memory. Just kidding.

The monk gets another stunning attack every level.
The Extra Stunning Attack feat gives another 3? stuns per day with no BAB prerequisite.

The Extra Stunning feat made no special mention that the monk can take it without meeting the prereqs (BAB +2, Stunning Fist).

The barbarian gets 1 rage per day to start, then an extra rage per day every four levels.
The Extra Rage feat gives another 2 rages per day with no BAB prerequisite.
The Extend Rage feats gives another 5 rounds of each rage with no BAB prerequisite.

The duration and number of use per day increase a lot but the benefit is minimal (the bonuses only directly increase the ability scores, not the ability score modifier). In the meantime (at least for barbarian of 16th level or lower), you suffer the negative side effect of your rage, which will require rest (a lazy barbarian) or the aid of a cleric (a co-dependent barbarian).

The paladin gets 1 smite evil per day to start, then an extra smite every five levels.
The Extra Smite feat gives another 2 smites per day but with a +4 BAB prerequisite - so not available till 6th-level or later.

So by 6th level, he has 4 smites per day, with the benefit of adding his Cha bonus with either Str bonus or Dex bonus to his attack roll and deal out +6 extra points of damage. Oh, and he does not get fatigued at the end of combat.

Am I the only one who sees this as giving the paladin the very short end of the stick?

At 3rd level, a monk can get 5 stunning attacks per day.

At 3rd level, a barbarian can be raging 3 times a day for at least 10 rounds each time. Hell, a human barbarian could be doing this at 1st level.

But the paladin at 3rd level still only has 1 lousy smite per day. And at 3rd level, that's just +3 attack and +3 damage one time. Once! Not until 5th level can the paladin do it a second time.

How is this right/balanced/fair?

You mean, combat-wise, the paladin is probably not the best. But overall, he has other abilities in which he excels better than either a barbarian or a monk. Spells which he can access by 4th level. Turn Undead ability which he can use Divine Might feat (assuming there is a free feat slot to fill). Aura of Courage will make him immune to fear, where a barbarian may flee in terror (unless the co-dependent barbarian stick close to the paladin to receive some advantage to his saving throw).

 

[Darklone]

I'd suggest to check out some storyhours to see how paladins fare in high level combat.

 

[The Souljourner]

I agree with the original poster that requiring 6th level to get the feat is a bit much, especially given that it's about the only offensive ability the paladin has.

My monk 1/cleric 1 is very unhappy about having to wait until 9th level to get the damn feat. Stupid 3/4 BAB stacking to make someone inferior to a friggin' wizard

Paladins do fine in high level one on one combats where a single massive hit can win the day. Whatever. How often do you really get to do the "mounted charge with lance and smite evil" thing? In the right campaign it could be pretty often. In the typical dungeon crawl? Practically never.

I think all those "do your thing 2 more times" feats should be accessible by 3rd level. 6th is just too damn far away.

The paladin got a small boost in 3.5, but needed a bigger one. He's a defensive offenseman, and that just sucks. They get a bunch of nice flavor defensive abilities that account for nearly zippo (when was the last time you had to make a save vs. a disease? And when was the last time you failed and even cared?)... immunity to fear is neat in concept, but not terribly useful in play. Fear just doesn't come up often enough. Oh and cure disease once a week, because once a day was too unbalancing. puh-lease.

Anyway.... enough on why paladins need more power. The feat should require "smite class ability" and that's it. It's not like getting +4 to hit and +1 damage three times per day is going to unbalance any first level character. Barbarians get +2 to hit and damage and +2 hitpoints per level for an entire fight! There's absolutely no reason not to make this thing have no requirements other than the ability to do it in the first place.... it only gets better with time, so requiring it to be later is stupid.

-The Souljourner