Sir Osis of Liver
Explorer
Try using the xp award system from the forgotten realms setting, it will help keep things fair for everyone.
Extremely varied party level (Cydra players stay out!)
- Thread starter the Jester
- Start date
Lord Pendragon
First Post
Well, personally I'd try to rectify the disparity in levels, rather than tailoring individual encounters for it. I mean, how long can you have the evil henchmen attack the level 8 guy and the main villain attack the 15/16th-level guys without it becoming hackneyed and contrived?
Get one of the 8th-levelers bit by a weretiger. That bumps him up into the ball-field right there. (And contracted lycanthropy is a fun plot hook, too.) Perhaps the party has a plane shift mishap, and another lower-level PC becomes a celestial being. Or better yet, a half-elemental.
Once the powers are on par again, you can figure out the challenges normally.
My 2 cents.
Get one of the 8th-levelers bit by a weretiger. That bumps him up into the ball-field right there. (And contracted lycanthropy is a fun plot hook, too.) Perhaps the party has a plane shift mishap, and another lower-level PC becomes a celestial being. Or better yet, a half-elemental.
Once the powers are on par again, you can figure out the challenges normally.
My 2 cents.
the Jester
Legend
Sir Osis: I use the FR system for xp, and you're right; it does help. It also helps to level the playing field (though this takes time).
Lord Pendragon: well, speaking of levelling the playing field!
Hmm, I had given thought to trying to equalize the pcs a little but not like you suggest. One catch with lycanthropy is that there aren't usually moons in my campaign world (you'll usually see one for anywhere from four to thrity months anywhere from once to three times in your life if you're a human... moons are different since my campaign world isn't set on a planet), but I get your meaning. Hm, I'll have to give it some thought.
I wouldn't always have the big bad guy while the little bad guys attack the lower level pcs; but simply having that sort of mix means that the lower level pcs can attack the weaker bad guys if they want to instead of the main one- say, the wights instead of the death knight or whatever. The heavy hitter on the evil side will choose who to attack based on its own motivations (many of the pcs are known players in the conflict between Law and Chaos and there are many old grudges with extraplanar powers that are going to be involved in the overall campaign's movement, if you know what I mean). For instance, a devil might especially hate clerics, while a death knight might charge the strongest-looking enemy first, or that guy who was a survivor of an earlier adventure one pc took part in may hold a grudge (one group went through the Gates of Firestorm Keep and made quasi-allies of the duergar, but killed many of them on the way and broke important rules while they were there; another pc has had several minor jail terms for debt, etc; several have been in court in the modron-run Court of Law on Nirvana itself; and so forth).
Thanks for the ideas- maybe I'll try to work in the template idea somehow!
Lord Pendragon: well, speaking of levelling the playing field!
Hmm, I had given thought to trying to equalize the pcs a little but not like you suggest. One catch with lycanthropy is that there aren't usually moons in my campaign world (you'll usually see one for anywhere from four to thrity months anywhere from once to three times in your life if you're a human... moons are different since my campaign world isn't set on a planet), but I get your meaning. Hm, I'll have to give it some thought.I wouldn't always have the big bad guy while the little bad guys attack the lower level pcs; but simply having that sort of mix means that the lower level pcs can attack the weaker bad guys if they want to instead of the main one- say, the wights instead of the death knight or whatever. The heavy hitter on the evil side will choose who to attack based on its own motivations (many of the pcs are known players in the conflict between Law and Chaos and there are many old grudges with extraplanar powers that are going to be involved in the overall campaign's movement, if you know what I mean). For instance, a devil might especially hate clerics, while a death knight might charge the strongest-looking enemy first, or that guy who was a survivor of an earlier adventure one pc took part in may hold a grudge (one group went through the Gates of Firestorm Keep and made quasi-allies of the duergar, but killed many of them on the way and broke important rules while they were there; another pc has had several minor jail terms for debt, etc; several have been in court in the modron-run Court of Law on Nirvana itself; and so forth).
Thanks for the ideas- maybe I'll try to work in the template idea somehow!
Graf
Explorer
As a solid member fo the pro-camp
Yes. I had a 4th level character adventuring with a 9th&10th level party for a while. It was fine. The character was weaker than everybody else and there was this huge hubub about that but (watching the whole thing more objectively) he contributed immensely to the story line and the party's success.
I have a strict "new characters enter the game @ 5th level" policy. Ever since I read Jeff Grubb's old Forgotten realms comic book (which had 5th level paladin working in a team with a bunch of 6-8th level characters and a 14th level mage) I've been interested in not forcing everyone in the party to be the same exact power level. (not that they are anyway but that's sort of the point... characters don't balance precisely anyway, so I'm not one to lock myself into it totally).
Here's some stuff I've run into (and advice I can give)
Make people happy with being different levels
The toughest part about it is actually player psychology. A lot of the more meta-players (I don't really mean power gamers but that's the sort of people I'm thinking of) only see stats, special abilities and magic items. Though they can be supportive a lot of their comisserating "man! you have it rough!!" or "just give up, at you're level there's nothing you can do!" comments can create a sense of frustration or unfairness in the player. So
Keep it real Remind people that it isn't 4th level druid & 9th level paladin but Aidon, a young druid on a sacred quest, and Xerces, the grizzled paladin who vowed to help him. In D&D an adventuring party is -always- the same level but In RL people hang out with others who are younger/older/dumber/brighter/richer/poorer all the time.
Point out objectively how the characters contribute to the sucess of the group There are many situations in D&D when you beneift immensly from having another person around. The dice certainly are set up this way. Both skill checks, attack roles and damage rolls can show case this. So Malakai would have noticed the theif on a roll of 8 or better, he rolled a 5. Aidon's only going to see him if he rolls a 16, but thats a lot better odds than Malakai alone. Once they get keyed into this your better palyers will figure out how useful another attack, spell, etc. a round is and re-enforce this in their planning.
Encourage team tactics and smart planning This is actually a lot of little stuff. Its a chance for the group to think (in character) about their combat roles. Our druid got a lot of milage out of (and saved a lot of people who would otherwise have died) using a CMW wand. While a lower level fighter-type who wants to be a front line combatant will have trouble in general low-level fighter characters can still be extremely useful. Disposing of weakened foes, protecting a wizard from melee for a round to two, letting a higher level rogue flank, etc. the list is almost endless. Dynamic battles and flash confrontations, and battles with fluid situations because of environmental changes, the arrival of new foes or shifting enemy tactics really allows different people to shine.
I also can say its just a great opportunity to roleplay. You get a lot of mentors-student relationships. It rewards players who have been at it for a while and gives people a chance to really define their characters on a level you don't always get to see. In our group the most powerful character (the wizard) wound up studying with the least (the druid) because he wanted to renew his ties to the nature oriented culture he had grown up in.
One last thing... Area effect damage spells (though with your character levels its less of an issue) have been my #1 issue. The high reflex high-level monk/rogues walz though unharmed while the lower level types get pounded. nothing differentiates the character levels more quickly than "save you're fine, fail and you're dead" type stuff you start seeing around CR 9-10.
hope this helps,
Graf
[edit PS: setting the inital adventure around one of the weaker characters is also a good idea. IMC the party helped out the new character and promptly got confused and killed him. They felt terrible in and out of character and wound up helping him pay back the evil druid who raised him. Though it was all spur of the moment type planning on my part net-net it worked out. A group of city-types wound up trapsing through the forest to help a druid, letting him guide and track, identify dangerous plants, scout in wildshape, negotiate with hostile dryads, and so on. If you can work something like that in it will probably help the groups cohesivenesss.
It might be cool to do something with a lower level character who has more prestige or rank and is "in charge".]
the Jester said:
Yes. I had a 4th level character adventuring with a 9th&10th level party for a while. It was fine. The character was weaker than everybody else and there was this huge hubub about that but (watching the whole thing more objectively) he contributed immensely to the story line and the party's success.
I have a strict "new characters enter the game @ 5th level" policy. Ever since I read Jeff Grubb's old Forgotten realms comic book (which had 5th level paladin working in a team with a bunch of 6-8th level characters and a 14th level mage) I've been interested in not forcing everyone in the party to be the same exact power level. (not that they are anyway but that's sort of the point... characters don't balance precisely anyway, so I'm not one to lock myself into it totally).
Here's some stuff I've run into (and advice I can give)
Make people happy with being different levels
The toughest part about it is actually player psychology. A lot of the more meta-players (I don't really mean power gamers but that's the sort of people I'm thinking of) only see stats, special abilities and magic items. Though they can be supportive a lot of their comisserating "man! you have it rough!!" or "just give up, at you're level there's nothing you can do!" comments can create a sense of frustration or unfairness in the player. So
Keep it real Remind people that it isn't 4th level druid & 9th level paladin but Aidon, a young druid on a sacred quest, and Xerces, the grizzled paladin who vowed to help him. In D&D an adventuring party is -always- the same level but In RL people hang out with others who are younger/older/dumber/brighter/richer/poorer all the time.
Point out objectively how the characters contribute to the sucess of the group There are many situations in D&D when you beneift immensly from having another person around. The dice certainly are set up this way. Both skill checks, attack roles and damage rolls can show case this. So Malakai would have noticed the theif on a roll of 8 or better, he rolled a 5. Aidon's only going to see him if he rolls a 16, but thats a lot better odds than Malakai alone. Once they get keyed into this your better palyers will figure out how useful another attack, spell, etc. a round is and re-enforce this in their planning.
Encourage team tactics and smart planning This is actually a lot of little stuff. Its a chance for the group to think (in character) about their combat roles. Our druid got a lot of milage out of (and saved a lot of people who would otherwise have died) using a CMW wand. While a lower level fighter-type who wants to be a front line combatant will have trouble in general low-level fighter characters can still be extremely useful. Disposing of weakened foes, protecting a wizard from melee for a round to two, letting a higher level rogue flank, etc. the list is almost endless. Dynamic battles and flash confrontations, and battles with fluid situations because of environmental changes, the arrival of new foes or shifting enemy tactics really allows different people to shine.
I also can say its just a great opportunity to roleplay. You get a lot of mentors-student relationships. It rewards players who have been at it for a while and gives people a chance to really define their characters on a level you don't always get to see. In our group the most powerful character (the wizard) wound up studying with the least (the druid) because he wanted to renew his ties to the nature oriented culture he had grown up in.
One last thing... Area effect damage spells (though with your character levels its less of an issue) have been my #1 issue. The high reflex high-level monk/rogues walz though unharmed while the lower level types get pounded. nothing differentiates the character levels more quickly than "save you're fine, fail and you're dead" type stuff you start seeing around CR 9-10.
hope this helps,
Graf
[edit PS: setting the inital adventure around one of the weaker characters is also a good idea. IMC the party helped out the new character and promptly got confused and killed him. They felt terrible in and out of character and wound up helping him pay back the evil druid who raised him. Though it was all spur of the moment type planning on my part net-net it worked out. A group of city-types wound up trapsing through the forest to help a druid, letting him guide and track, identify dangerous plants, scout in wildshape, negotiate with hostile dryads, and so on. If you can work something like that in it will probably help the groups cohesivenesss.
It might be cool to do something with a lower level character who has more prestige or rank and is "in charge".]
Last edited:
the Jester
Legend
Well, the biggest power gamer is the highest level character, and nobody minds the level disparity too much- player psychology shouldn't really be a problem. There are already relationships set up in the party- Angel (psychic warrior/cleric) is sort of apprenticed to Sheva (super multiclassed), since they're both clerics of the same god; Clambake and Horbin have been adventuring buddies together for years; Zeebo knows and adventured with both Angel and Sheva. Of all of them, only Lester (the elementalist/warrior of chaos) doesn't know anyone in the group, but that will be easy to deal with; old grudges held against him by an assassin will draw Sheva into a diplomatic effort to buy off the grudge on the assassins' part.
What I'm most interested in is peoples' experiences with setting up 3e encounters as "appropriate challenges" for such a diversely levelled group- for instance, if anyone could post some examples of the types of mixes they've used, I'd be grateful! I have a feeling that treasure may be kind of weird, too; the group is going to be dealing with tough monsters with high DR and the like from time to time, so they'll need treasure appropriate to deal with the heavy bad guys, but to get it they need to fight heavy bad guys first... I can imagine the lower level types ending up with some great items (the party generally rolls for dividing treasure). Well, that is sort of an equalizer too, I guess. And I think I'm going to make a point of using lots of treasure-destroying things as well- rust monsters, oozes, disenchanters, whathaveyou. Fast in, fast out...
What I'm most interested in is peoples' experiences with setting up 3e encounters as "appropriate challenges" for such a diversely levelled group- for instance, if anyone could post some examples of the types of mixes they've used, I'd be grateful! I have a feeling that treasure may be kind of weird, too; the group is going to be dealing with tough monsters with high DR and the like from time to time, so they'll need treasure appropriate to deal with the heavy bad guys, but to get it they need to fight heavy bad guys first... I can imagine the lower level types ending up with some great items (the party generally rolls for dividing treasure). Well, that is sort of an equalizer too, I guess. And I think I'm going to make a point of using lots of treasure-destroying things as well- rust monsters, oozes, disenchanters, whathaveyou. Fast in, fast out...
the Jester
Legend
Okay, can't resist mentioning that I'm using the avolakia-mind flayer alliance suggested in the avolakia write-up in the MM2... tie this together with this thread and I think you'll see some of the possibilities... 
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