Failed promises

[Kanegrundar]

If you have a detailed idea of exactly what you want, why, pray tell, can't you do it yourself?

I really love it when I hear this arguement. It always brings sooo much to the conversation.

It could be that I don't have the time. Between work, family, and trying to find time to just game I don't have a lot left in the week to sit down and do something that would have been done right in the first place if the designers would have given the fans what we were clamoring for.

It could be that I don't have the amount of talent to do it justice. 'Nuff said there.

Maybe, just maybe, I expected too much in the designers to listen to the fans when updating a classic setting to a new ruleset. I knew that bits and peices like no mutant animals and plants wouldn't be in it, but I still bought it anyway hoping against hope that it would still be worthwhile. It wasn't. The GWPHB wasn't a complete washout, but it wasn't nearly as good as earlier editions.

Kane

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I tend to circle a product like a waiting vulture, so I seldom get really disappointed. (Read it a little, flutter away, read it a little more, flutter away, read it a little more, and if it has stood up to this much reading I make a purchase... though it is sad when a vulture tries to flutter...)

Most recently was the PDF for Athenium Arcane: Letters, not a major purchase, but the first real disappointment that I have had with Ronin Art's works. I gather that there is a revision being worked on, hopefully this will aleviate my concerns.

The Auld Grump

 

[eyebeams]

I really love it when I hear this arguement. It always brings sooo much to the conversation.

I think it's relevancy continues to be its most annoying trait.

It could be that I don't have the time. Between work, family, and trying to find time to just game I don't have a lot left in the week to sit down and do something that would have been done right in the first place if the designers would have given the fans what we were clamoring for.

You had the time to comment on it just now. You have over a thousand posts logged here. If you wrote 100 words of what you wanted for every post you added, you'd have been able to write a significant part of the book.

I can think of some folks who probably could write entire RPGs using the wordage they've spent complaining about a specific game they didn't like.

And this is where it is relevant: You and everyone else who makes this argument could, in fact, create your own worlds and your own rules tweaks on your own time. The fact is that you just don't feel like it, really.

This is fine; it's why people get paid to write/design games and supplements. No dishonour in not feeling like writing! The thing is, it gives you absolutely no entitlement to the final product's creative direction.

You don't do the work, you don't get the input. After that, your power over the product consists of whether or not you buy it.

It could be that I don't have the amount of talent to do it justice. 'Nuff said there.

Talent is cheap. Effort isn't. Effort trumps talent, every time. Effort *and* talent . . . well, that's the combination you want. You may have a great talent for game design, but no desire to pursue it. Again, this is not a bad thing -- but again -- it is not a significant reason to expect folks who put in the effort to consult with fans.

I think excessive fannishness is hurting gaming as a whole, just as it has hurt every other field where fan opinons are taken seriously. The comics industry in the 90s was created for hardcore comics fans -- and now comics are nearly toast. Star Trek's last decade has essentially consisted of fan-submitted fanfic and high concepts, which is why it crashed and burned.

And even though current propaganda of various stripes denies it, AD&D2nd was defined by its fans. THAC0, the new bard -- all of 'em came from fan input. And it blew chunks.

Basically, whenever creators give the fans exactly what they want, it kind of sucks. Fans of a specific property are just not reliable economc actors either way (they buy things they hate, or vocally hate things they'll never buy anyway), and their tastes don't synch well with the larger consumer base. Since they're participating through their own secondary creations -- which are locked up in their heads or posts in places like this -- creators have little way to emphasize one thing without treading on somebody's provate interpretation of an idea.

Given that, and given the fact that creatives are the ones actually making the effort, it's no surprise that they experiment or see things the way you don't.

Maybe, just maybe, I expected too much in the designers to listen to the fans when updating a classic setting to a new ruleset. I knew that bits and peices like no mutant animals and plants wouldn't be in it, but I still bought it anyway hoping against hope that it would still be worthwhile. It wasn't. The GWPHB wasn't a complete washout, but it wasn't nearly as good as earlier editions.

This underlines the whole problem. You were never going to get a clone of earlier editions in a thousand years. Gamma World's older editions had lousy rules and various awful systems. Were you really yearning for another set of saddle-stitched books missing half a dozen important rules, with no interior art? Do you think anyone ought to care about an atomic apocalypse in a world where there are teens to twenty-years olds with no direct experience of nuclear detente? I hear lots of talk about the Wahoo! style of play, but of course, when we actually *look at the freakin' books*, GW support was as gritty as it got. When GW was a going concern, Dragon/Ares articles had no real "Wahoo!" support. In fact, much of it (like the article on PSHs that retcons their origins as unmutated homo sapiens) existed to tone down the "Wahoo!" -- not support it.

Moving away from GW, though, you see this all over the place. In many ways, nostalgia bears little relationship with the reality of the thing. Essentially, what you're asking is for a book to replicate your reaction to another book. This is basically impossible, probably undesireable and in pure economic terms, not a good bet.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Irrelevancy, not relevancy.

It remains one of the most pointless comments of the internet.

People want a product they buy to be good. If it isn't they have a right to complain. In his opinion GWD20 was not good. I rather agree.

The Auld Grump

 

[Crothian]

And this is where it is relevant: You and everyone else who makes this argument could, in fact, create your own worlds and your own rules tweaks on your own time. The fact is that you just don't feel like it, really.

Now, I've never written an RPG book but I'd be willing to bet that most if not all RPG writers would say that posting to a message board is a lot easier then writing a book. Now I do write the occasional review and I know writing a review is more difficult then writing a post (something else I've done on occasion). I'm thinking writing a book is also more difficult then writing a review.

 

[Kanegrundar]

You had the time to comment on it just now. You have over a thousand posts logged here. If you wrote 100 words of what you wanted for every post you added, you'd have been able to write a significant part of the book.

That doesn't mean that it would be balanced, well written, or honestly worth a damn. Plus, the overwhelming majority of my posts over the last, what, 3 years have been done during slow periods at work. I'm not dragging my game books to work to look up rules and such just to write a few words here and there.

I can think of some folks who probably could write entire RPGs using the wordage they've spent complaining about a specific game they didn't like.

The same could be said for people that complain about others complaining.

And this is where it is relevant: You and everyone else who makes this argument could, in fact, create your own worlds and your own rules tweaks on your own time. The fact is that you just don't feel like it, really.

That's why there are businesses that do this. They write books for those that don't have the time or inclination to do such a thing. I like playing the game, not building it from scratch that's why designers have a job.

This is fine; it's why people get paid to write/design games and supplements. No dishonour in not feeling like writing! The thing is, it gives you absolutely no entitlement to the final product's creative direction.

True to a point. This is a hobby industry. If you're not going to listen to the fans of your end product, then you might as well shut your doors. Especially with something like GW that has been around for ages it would do anyone attempting a new edition of the setting to listen to what the fans want and try to let that guide what should be in the final product. I'm not saying the fans should get the final say, just that their opinions should at least be listened to. Especially if many of them are calling for the same things.

You don't do the work, you don't get the input. After that, your power over the product consists of whether or not you buy it.

So, you never get a little miffed when something that you have a vested interest in either through being a fan or simply just being interested in falls way short of the mark? If not, then why read a thread that consists of people pointing out and complaining about how one book or another turned out?

Talent is cheap. Effort isn't. Effort trumps talent, every time. Effort *and* talent . . . well, that's the combination you want. You may have a great talent for game design, but no desire to pursue it. Again, this is not a bad thing -- but again -- it is not a significant reason to expect folks who put in the effort to consult with fans.

There are a lot of fan sites on the net that took a lot of effort to put together that the end result is crap. Heck, there are several companies printing material right now that are all effort and no talent, there were more of them, but I'll be damned if they didn't go out of business. Without talent, effort is just wasted most of the time.

I think excessive fannishness is hurting gaming as a whole, just as it has hurt every other field where fan opinons are taken seriously. The comics industry in the 90s was created for hardcore comics fans -- and now comics are nearly toast. Star Trek's last decade has essentially consisted of fan-submitted fanfic and high concepts, which is why it crashed and burned.

And even though current propaganda of various stripes denies it, AD&D2nd was defined by its fans. THAC0, the new bard -- all of 'em came from fan input. And it blew chunks.

Basically, whenever creators give the fans exactly what they want, it kind of sucks. Fans of a specific property are just not reliable economc actors either way (they buy things they hate, or vocally hate things they'll never buy anyway), and their tastes don't synch well with the larger consumer base. Since they're participating through their own secondary creations -- which are locked up in their heads or posts in places like this -- creators have little way to emphasize one thing without treading on somebody's provate interpretation of an idea.

So the fans' opinions mean nothing? Please. This industry WILL FAIL if companies turn a deaf ear to desires of those that buy their product. If the fans are all chanting for some sort of book on elves, then companies would be silly not to put a book on elves out. Especially in an industry this small, ticking off the fans is the best way to ensure you close your doors. Like I said, fans shouldn't have the final say or even most of the say, but they should at least be listened to in order that the final product has a chance at being something the fans will like and want to support.

Given that, and given the fact that creatives are the ones actually making the effort, it's no surprise that they experiment or see things the way you don't.

That's great. I'm glad they do such things. Otherwise there wouldn't be True20, AE, and so on. Just simply being the creative doesn't mean that they should turn up their noses or ignore what their core demographic is looking for in a game though.

This underlines the whole problem. You were never going to get a clone of earlier editions in a thousand years. Gamma World's older editions had lousy rules and various awful systems. Were you really yearning for another set of saddle-stitched books missing half a dozen important rules, with no interior art? Do you think anyone ought to care about an atomic apocalypse in a world where there are teens to twenty-years olds with no direct experience of nuclear detente? I hear lots of talk about the Wahoo! style of play, but of course, when we actually *look at the freakin' books*, GW support was as gritty as it got. When GW was a going concern, Dragon/Ares articles had no real "Wahoo!" support. In fact, much of it (like the article on PSHs that retcons their origins as unmutated homo sapiens) existed to tone down the "Wahoo!" -- not support it.

I never once said that I wanted a clone of earlier editions. The old systems were crappy, that's why i don't play them anymore. However, they did have some great ideas that could easily be carried over to the new edition. All I wanted was the options the older editons had carried over to the new ruleset. As far as the Wahoo factor goes, all I know is how we played it back in the early days. There were lots of weird mutations, strange mutants, and wild powers. Sure it was gritty, but it didn't always play that way. The Alternity edition did, but they pulled away from the more wild elements that Alternity wasn't really meant to simulate, so it got toned down. For the whole part about kids these days not living under the threat of nuclear war, ever hear of North Korea, India, Iran, and Pakistan. Just because the cold war ended when a lot of younger gamers were too young to remember doesn't mean they don't understand the threat.

Moving away from GW, though, you see this all over the place. In many ways, nostalgia bears little relationship with the reality of the thing. Essentially, what you're asking is for a book to replicate your reaction to another book. This is basically impossible, probably undesireable and in pure economic terms, not a good bet.

I stand by my opinions. I tried to like the book. I actually liked the idea of nanites. What I really disliked was some elements that many nore consider key to GW like mutant animals and plants were omitted or handwaved. That's all fine and dandy, but S&SS should have seen the backlash coming a mile away. Plus, the rules were spotty at best and down right horrible at worst. Even if they had made it exactly the way I wanted (which I NEVER expect from a game book, but I do get surprised sometimes), the authors' understanding of D20 wasn't good enough to make it a good book.

As for all the rest, well, anyone that has a vested interest in just about anything is going to voice their opinion on it, for good or ill. That's just part of being around and putting up with people. Get used to it. Especially on threads where the whole point of the thread is to voice their opinions on books they spent money on and didn't get a good value out of.

Kane

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Deities and Demigods

I'll join the chorus, but for a very different reason. I like the Epic Level Handbook. A lot. And at higher Epic levels, I'd like to see the PCs be able to tangle with the gods (without necessarily becoming gods themselves).

The gods get a lot of cheesy-stupid mechanics (always count as rolling a twenty?! ) all to themselves, tied to what is essentially a complete 20-level progression all their own. But they don't get Epic levels in PC classes, they don't get Epic Spellcasting, they don't get Epic Feats, and their stats, although outrageously high, are impossible to weigh against suitably Epic threats. Worst of all, they're all arbitrarily set at 60 hit dice.

The D&Dg stats are basically as incompatible with the ELH as, say, Tri-Stat stats for the gods would be. Less! Tri-Stat actually has a conversion to d20, albeit a somewhat troublesome one.

Which brings us to...

Big Eyes, Small Mouth d20

I bought this to satisfy my hankering for two things: a d20 point-buy system and a system to incorporate anime-inspired elements into d20. Unfortunately, BESM d20 is neither. It's a clumsy port of the Tri-Stat original, losing the simplicity of Tri-Stat without gaining the compatibility of d20.

For that matter, BESM d20 is incompatible with itself! Stacking BAB, powers and skill-based attack bonus does not a comprehensible system make. At all.

I've gotten a lot of use out of this book over the years and I got the "Stingy Gamer Edition," so I can't call it a waste of money, but it's one of those books that basically only works for a GM and doesn't really work even then. Letting players use it would require constant supervision and probably coaching, since it's painfully easy to break a character to the point where he can hardly interact on the same plane as his fellows.

 

[Mokona]

The conversation has gotten a little hot on this thread.

Everyone is entitled to speak their mind where appropriate and ENWorld is surely the right spot.

However, vocal fans are very different than the majority of people who buy and play RPGs. None of us should assume that the majority of fans want what each of us individually wants.

We should still speak our minds so that designers have some idea what someone thinks but we shouldn't demand that our requests be accomdated. Just don't spend your money on a product where the design doesn't suit your tastes.

 

[Kanegrundar]

I never demanded that the designers should do what I wanted them to do. I simply figured that since certain elements have been clamored for in the last two editions and not delivered, they might think "Hey, the fans would like to see this and that, let's see what we can do." It's a sound philosophy: listen and try to accomodate. No one expects all their wishes to make it into any game book...well, maybe some do, but most don't. Just try to keep your core demographic as pleased as possible and you'll sell more books. After all that is the main point of being in a game business.

Kane

 

[S'mon]

Hmm... now I'm wondering if this was the book I heard about & I bought the wrong one. :\

I just had another look at R&R: Excalibur. On second thoughts if I treat it as a buffet rather than a set dinner I can use bits & pieces from it; the honour system looks good for instance. I'm actually thinking now Arthurian setting would work better using Castles & Crusades.