Failed promises

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eyebeams said:
A purely faithful treatment will just snag existing fans, who would buy the book out of brand allegiance/collectibility anyway, and as a form of fandom are likely to complain in any event. So basically, by being faithful you can only lose consumers who aren't part of prior fandom.

:confused:

Or, alternately, you can gamble that elements that were sufficiently popular to attract a core of vocal fans who've stuck with it for over a decade might just be able to attract new fans. :eek:

You suggest that a publisher use the following formulae:

Elements that nobody cared about to begin with = t3h win.

Elements that people loved enough to care about them for years = t3h sux.

Somehow, I can't see that as good business sense. It's one thing to take a broadly popular product whose die-hard fans disagreed with the main body of consumers - the fans remember but the rest of the buyers don't. It's quite another to take a niche product (like, well, any RPG, and doubly so a sci-fi RPG) and ignore the very elements that, it seems, made it popular to its particular niche in the first place.

What's more, there's an economic incentive to cater to the die-hard fans if you assume two things: a willingness to continue the line or produce merchandise based on it, and a die-hard fanbase whose ideas are not completely out-of-whack with the general populace.

Considering the abysmal failure of Gamma World d20, I'd say that the general (gaming) populace didn't dig the new style - or the overall poor quality of the book. Unless one assumes the book was designed merely to ream the nostalgia crowd, in which case it should have catered to said crowd anyway, it's hard to imagine any way of describing it other than as a failure.

Omega World, on the other hand, was, by Erik Mona's own account (and I think he would know ;) ), the most popular Polyhedron minigame. Whether it was accurate to the original Gamma World or not, it apparently catered to the vocal fanbase's concept of said original - and it apparently, lo and behold, clicked more with the general gaming populace than less faithful adaptations.
 

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Henry said:
We've been around the RPG revolution, too. :)

Some of us more a-rounder than others. ;)

Remember that article with the tables to roll up a random mutant? Was that in an early Dragon or an SR?
 

Henry said:
I beg to differ. Oh, how I beg. :) Metamorphosis Alpha had articles in the Strategic Review called "How Green is my Mutant?" First edition had pictures of intelligent plants reading books, Fat blubbery mutant animals with wings leaping over walls with tiny little wings, and part of the artifact treasure (besides the Blasters, Mark I through V) were things like rusted out cars, slot machines, and pool tables! It was surely juxtaposed with seriousness, but the elements of the absurd were there as well, just as it was with Gary's D&D (Blastum and Gutboy Barrelhouse, anyone?)

We're just seeing different things when we look at old Gamma World, that's all - but I would ask that you consider the people you're debating before you make generalizations, first. We've been around the RPG revolution, too. :)

You're my personal Jesus for the day. The "wahoo" was in Gamma World from the beginning. Just look at the art in the first edition book - giant rabbits with guns, a weird mutant with feet for hands...I mean, really. Hell, that was the appeal of the game back then. It was probably the second or third RPG I ever played, and I remember the group I gamed with always commenting on just how crazy the game was. The term "wahoo" sprang up fairly early in reference to it.

GW was anything but grim 'n' gritty - it took several years for a post-apocalypse game to appear that really was grim 'n' gritty - Twilight: 2000. For example, radiation in T:2000 didn't give you powers or some kind of useful or weird mutation. It killed you after you got enough rads.
 

MoogleEmpMog said:
Omega World, on the other hand, was, by Erik Mona's own account (and I think he would know ;) ), the most popular Polyhedron minigame. Whether it was accurate to the original Gamma World or not, it apparently catered to the vocal fanbase's concept of said original - and it apparently, lo and behold, clicked more with the general gaming populace than less faithful adaptations.

This is making me curious. Is Omega World for sale anywhere? Or is it out of print?

[I had fun with the wahoo-plus 1st edition gamma world].
 

DMH said:
Sorcery & Steam (FFG) was not what I was looking for. The rules on making devices are almost a skeleton and the PRCs are for a Victorian setting. The only good part is the intro.

Cityworks would be much better if the section on fantasy cities was more than caves, tree tops and cliff dwellings.

Midnight. I knew it was going to be depressing, but I thought there would be some way to win.

Whereas I liked all of these. I am not jumping up and down yelling 'you're wrong!' (though you are...:p) but rather that tastes differ.

When I bought S&S I was looking for something to drop into my Iron Kingdoms game, which it fit very nicely. However I also found that my enjoyment of S&S more than doubled when Steam & Steel came out. The S&S books cover each other's lacks very nicely.

I wanted mostly human cities, without a lot of over the top stuff, and Cityworks was exactly what I wanted.

As for Midnight, I never felt that it was unwinnable, just not winnable in a single character's lifetime, except maybe a very young elf's.

To me the real clunkers are ones that just didn't make sense, had bad rules (though here I find that I have enough on my D20 smorgasborg to compensate for a lot), or were not true to their premise.

The Auld Grump
 
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You can find back issues (if they have any left) at www.paizo.com. The issue you're looking for is Dungeon #92. If you can't find it at Paizo, try other sites like nobleknight.com who may have a copy still in stock.

Happy hunting!

Kane
 

eyebeams said:
Now that I've reminded you, feel free to reply to what I actually said: That one gamer being the constant economic contributor for the entire group is a bad idea.

OK, I'm replying to what you actually said: why is it a bad idea?

You've made the statement, but you've offered no proof; it's merely your opinion. If it works for your group, that's great, but what gives you the gumption to think that it's the only way it could possibly work?

In my group, people have different things that they want to spend their money on. It would be presumptuous of the GM to demand that the other players spend their money on what he thinks they should have.
 

Henry said:
I beg to differ. Oh, how I beg. :) Metamorphosis Alpha had articles in the Strategic Review called "How Green is my Mutant?" First edition had pictures of intelligent plants reading books, Fat blubbery mutant animals with wings leaping over walls with tiny little wings, and part of the artifact treasure (besides the Blasters, Mark I through V) were things like rusted out cars, slot machines, and pool tables! It was surely juxtaposed with seriousness, but the elements of the absurd were there as well, just as it was with Gary's D&D (Blastum and Gutboy Barrelhouse, anyone?)

We're just seeing different things when we look at old Gamma World, that's all - but I would ask that you consider the people you're debating before you make generalizations, first. We've been around the RPG revolution, too. :)


i'm with Mark and Henry.

oh how i beg to differ.

diaglo "who gave up on Gamma World around 1985 or so" Ooi
 

Or, alternately, you can gamble that elements that were sufficiently popular to attract a core of vocal fans who've stuck with it for over a decade might just be able to attract new fans.

Why? Game publishing is a business. As I noted earlier in this thread, faithfully obeying the desires of the fans has led to either crappy products or failed to really affect sales.

You suggest that a publisher use the following formulae:

I suggested the formula I actually suggested. Feel free to respond to it. The fact is that nothing excuses indiscriminate purchases.

What allows stuff you don't like to proliferate is mostly your willingness to buy said stuff. The fannish desire to have everything with a brand name first on the block, no matter its content, is a long term burden.

If you keep buying what you think is crap, I can't think of a single company that would be unwilling to continue to sell you said crap.

What's more, there's an economic incentive to cater to the die-hard fans if you assume two things: a willingness to continue the line or produce merchandise based on it, and a die-hard fanbase whose ideas are not completely out-of-whack with the general populace.

Actually:

1) Gamma World's "fanbase" looked pretty miniscule to me. I didn't see a preponderance of GW fanpages before any kind of adaptation. How many of you can name one off the top of your head, without googling? I also note that nobody here has really ever discussed GW's setting, either -- awfully curious for such a "die-hard" fanbase never to talk about anything specific about the game.

In reality, perhaps some folks should be honest with themselves, look back and realize that GW as a going concern has been primarily driven by company-end hype.

2) The "old school" vision of Gamma World many of you talk about was a recent invention. Yes, there was a "How Green is My Mutant" article in the Strategic Review. There were, by contrast, several attempts to dee-"Wahoo!" GW in Ares. One I remember offhand: An article on how to use genetic engineering to justify PSH's stats because they didn't make any sense otherwise. But wait -- genetic engineering is supposed to be Bad, and Not Gamma World, right? A pity nobody told the authors back in the 80s.

Considering the abysmal failure of Gamma World d20,I'd say that the general (gaming) populace didn't dig the new style - or the overall poor quality of the book. Unless one assumes the book was designed merely to ream the nostalgia crowd, in which case it should have catered to said crowd anyway, it's hard to imagine any way of describing it other than as a failure.

Considering what again? Oh -- you mean, "Considering that a dozen or guys on a few fora complain about GWD20 and I would like to think that has some sort of connection to economic reality."

It doesn't. Sorry.

In reality, Gamma World had a more successful run than most game books -- almost definitely more than Darwin's World, the perrenially-mentioned bridesmaid that "got it right." If SSS could run the books it did, it means that SSS sold enough to justify continued printings, which automatically puts its sales an order of magnitude above anything but a WotC offering.

Yep it still might suck, despite the fact that it sold well. But don't blame them -- you guys bought it, remember?

Omega World, on the other hand, was, by Erik Mona's own account (and I think he would know ), the most popular Polyhedron minigame. Whether it was accurate to the original Gamma World or not, it apparently catered to the vocal fanbase's concept of said original - and it apparently, lo and behold, clicked more with the general gaming populace than less faithful adaptations.

I'm having trouble parsing this, because you can't define how "faithful" GWD20 is compared to Omega World without making a claim about how faithful Omega World was in the first place.

Omega World was quite nice, but its relationship to Gamma World was pretty much like any tale about the "good old days" -- more grounded in sentiment than reality. Gamma World was a game without a central thesis and with a generally shoddy design where quick character death was easy to come by. Omega World is Jonothan Tweet's rather clever portrayal of how you actually played it -- since most of you were at most, 14 at the time, you played it with the feel of the cheeseball games people play when they're 14 or so.

Plus, Omega World was one of only a handful of rebooted minigames. And it's being compared to Spelljammer? Spelljammer's first incarnation bombed so badly it was left as fodder for Roger E. Moore's random jokes, making print because TSR printed pretty much anything.
 

BWP said:
OK, I'm replying to what you actually said: why is it a bad idea?

You've made the statement, but you've offered no proof; it's merely your opinion. If it works for your group, that's great, but what gives you the gumption to think that it's the only way it could possibly work?

In my group, people have different things that they want to spend their money on. It would be presumptuous of the GM to demand that the other players spend their money on what he thinks they should have.

Do you think it's healthy for one person in a group to constantly pay for anything? Frankly, I think I struck a nerve with that one -- and with good reason.
 

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