Failing Forward

How do you feel about Fail Forward mechanics?

  • I like Fail Forward

    Votes: 74 46.8%
  • I dislike Fail Forward

    Votes: 26 16.5%
  • I do not care one way or the other

    Votes: 9 5.7%
  • I like it but only in certain situations

    Votes: 49 31.0%

I don't see why the answer cannot be both.
It can be. But the more that fiction is authored in advance, and then used - as secret backstory - to determine consequences of players' action declarations for their PCs, then the more the play dynamic moves away from that which I prefer.

1) Pre-authored with no player input.
2) Pre-authored taking into account characters, goals desired, what the players want, etc.
3) In the moment taking into account characters, goals desired, what the players want, etc.
4)In the moment with no player input.

You have a clear preference for number 3 but seems to be insisting if everyone doesn't do it that way they must be playing by method 1.
I don't think that (4) is a particularly large or common category, although some of the suggested random rolls to see if climbing PCs drop gear would be an example. The only person in this thread who has mentioned the version of (4) that consists in a room's occupant being rolled for randomly (eg 70% chance the orcs are sleeping, 30% chance they are down the hall brawling with the kobolds) is me, so I assume that that sort of design is not all that common these days.

I don't think any actual examples of (2) have been given in this thread, have they? And are we talking about (a) pre-authoring for purposes of scene-framing, or (b) pre-authoring for purposes of narrating consequences?

(a) is something that I do myself - I will think, in advance, about the way I want to open a session. But (a) is not really feasible for later events in the session, because they have to reflect what has come before, and so can't be written in advance of that actual play.

(b) is what I take to have been the main focus of discussion in a thread on "fail forward". This is one way of negating player agency - for instance, if the GM has already decided that if the PCs look for the mace they won't find it, then (in my view, and given my preferences) action declarations of searching for the mace have been rendered somewhat futile. Or if the GM has already decided that the waterhole near the foothills has been fouled by a dark elf, then - in effect - the players can't fully succeed on a navigation/survival check. Again, by my lights this is a limit on player agency.

A lot of instances of (b) will be the result of pre-authoring secret backstory which is then used as part of the process of adjudicating action resolution. The mace not being in the tower, for example, is an instance of secret backstory that leads to an instance of (b). Another common example might be deciding that an NPC can't be persuaded of XYZ, so that attempts at social interaction by the PCs have a pre-determined outcome (of non-cooperation).

Of course, if the GM changes the notionally pre-authored consequences to reflect player action declarations for their PCs, and whether or not those checks succeed, then we don't have an instance of (2) at all. We have a version of (3).
 

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It can be. But the more that fiction is authored in advance, and then used - as secret backstory - to determine consequences of players' action declarations for their PCs, then the more the play dynamic moves away from that which I prefer.

I disagree. It doesn't move away at all. It just moves differently. A pre-authored reason for a consequence in the player driven plot is equal to a the DM authored reason for the same consequence that the DM authored in the moment. The story neither cares, nor is any way lessened by pre-authoring.

Pre-authoring does not take away from stuff authored in the moment. It's in addition to it and provides reasons that the DM and players can both draw upon for their in the moment story telling.
 

It's not rocket science. I simply asked for examples from your own play which justify this belief. Very simple.

What purpose would that serve? Especially since judging by your tone and inability to address what I actually posted, I don't believe you're interested in discussion.
 

Quote Originally Posted by pemerton View Post
It can be. But the more that fiction is authored in advance, and then used - as secret backstory - to determine consequences of players' action declarations for their PCs, then the more the play dynamic moves away from that which I prefer.


Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?473785-Failing-Forward/page79#ixzz3yjxVjvtQ

I disagree. It doesn't move away at all. It just moves differently. A pre-authored reason for a consequence in the player driven plot is equal to a the DM authored reason for the same consequence that the DM authored in the moment. The story neither cares, nor is any way lessened by pre-authoring.

Pre-authoring does not take away from stuff authored in the moment. It's in addition to it and provides reasons that the DM and players can both draw upon for their in the moment story telling.

It moves it away from the style that he likes. (even if it moves it more towards what I prefer).
 

I don't think any actual examples of (2) have been given in this thread, have they? And are we talking about (a) pre-authoring for purposes of scene-framing, or (b) pre-authoring for purposes of narrating consequences?

I gave an example of it with my player given pirate plot. Others have also mentioned in general that they do this.
 

Quote Originally Posted by pemerton View Post
It can be. But the more that fiction is authored in advance, and then used - as secret backstory - to determine consequences of players' action declarations for their PCs, then the more the play dynamic moves away from that which I prefer.


Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?473785-Failing-Forward/page79#ixzz3yjxVjvtQ



It moves it away from the style that he likes. (even if it moves it more towards what I prefer).

Hmm. Given the question I was answering, I thought he was talking about authoring in the moment rather than just him preferring authoring in the moment.

In a game with pre-authoring, there is as much authoring in the moment as there is without any pre-authoring. You just have pre-authored sources for both the player and DM to draw upon. That's why I said it doesn't move away, but just differently.
 

It can be. But the more that fiction is authored in advance, and then used - as secret backstory - to determine consequences of players' action declarations for their PCs, then the more the play dynamic moves away from that which I prefer.

I don't think that (4) is a particularly large or common category, although some of the suggested random rolls to see if climbing PCs drop gear would be an example. The only person in this thread who has mentioned the version of (4) that consists in a room's occupant being rolled for randomly (eg 70% chance the orcs are sleeping, 30% chance they are down the hall brawling with the kobolds) is me, so I assume that that sort of design is not all that common these days.

I don't think any actual examples of (2) have been given in this thread, have they? And are we talking about (a) pre-authoring for purposes of scene-framing, or (b) pre-authoring for purposes of narrating consequences?

(a) is something that I do myself - I will think, in advance, about the way I want to open a session. But (a) is not really feasible for later events in the session, because they have to reflect what has come before, and so can't be written in advance of that actual play.

(b) is what I take to have been the main focus of discussion in a thread on "fail forward". This is one way of negating player agency - for instance, if the GM has already decided that if the PCs look for the mace they won't find it, then (in my view, and given my preferences) action declarations of searching for the mace have been rendered somewhat futile. Or if the GM has already decided that the waterhole near the foothills has been fouled by a dark elf, then - in effect - the players can't fully succeed on a navigation/survival check. Again, by my lights this is a limit on player agency.

A lot of instances of (b) will be the result of pre-authoring secret backstory which is then used as part of the process of adjudicating action resolution. The mace not being in the tower, for example, is an instance of secret backstory that leads to an instance of (b). Another common example might be deciding that an NPC can't be persuaded of XYZ, so that attempts at social interaction by the PCs have a pre-determined outcome (of non-cooperation).

Of course, if the GM changes the notionally pre-authored consequences to reflect player action declarations for their PCs, and whether or not those checks succeed, then we don't have an instance of (2) at all. We have a version of (3).

Examples of the 4.

1) Pre-authored with no player input.
Playing in a world adventure that has no care for the players (forgotten Realms was not made with your character in mind) most pre-made adventures will be of this kind as they don't know which characters are in the party. Characters find their own place in the world and forge out their own goals etc. If they go to city x then there will be thing happening in the city independent of the characters that they can choose to or not to get involved with.

2) Pre-authored taking into account characters, goals desired, what the players want, etc.
Pre-authored, DM adds details that fit the player into the world, where they come from, family. The game is fleshed out based on the interests that the characters exhibit. DO they decide to take up piracy, are they helping the down trodden etc. There may not even be a main "plot" or "story". The world is theirs to do with. Authoring occurs between adventures as well as during.
If they go to city x then there will be thing happening in the city independent of the characters that they can choose to or not to get involved with. But if you have a thief in the party you will make sure the thieves guild is a big part of the city. If they are a cleric of a church then either their church will be in the city or a rival church. The characters interests will be more fully fleshed out in these area. Their family member might be in danger, or need help. Just because this doesn't happen in the way that you want it to doesn't mean that characters interests aren't being taken into account.


3) In the moment taking into account characters, goals desired, what the players want, etc.
The way you like playing.

4) In the moment with no player input.
This is perhaps more common that you think. There is the "random encounter" effect, but also from what you have described anything the DM comes up with that is not directly involving the PC's will come under this. Anytime you don't have a pre-drawn location map and make it up on the spot. If you need to decide if x is in a location and don't tie it to a characters skill. Deciding the weather, the name of the elven princess or barkeep. I have even been in some games where it is clear the DM is just pulling things out of his arse, and yet it in no way related to any of the characters. Any time something happens that isn't part of the "main plots" (if you have them) is in this catagory.

I personally prefer when not everything is so tightly connected to the PC's that it ends up looking like a bad soap opera, with all the co-incidences.

As for scene framing vs deciding outcomes, I don't see things the way you do.
I don't frame in a narrative sense the way you seem to do (if I understand from other threads). I present the situation to the characters as information (no goal presented). They decide how they want to interact with the situation. I decide outcome based on players declared actions (success, failure, unsure). To decide this I know the NPC's temperament, what they want from life, etc. Sometimes that means what the players want to do is impossible (I try to persuade the king to commit suicide, I look for a mace (that isn't there)). But something will happen.
If it is unknown then I will decide the outcomes, choose the skill/skills or probabilities that best reflect the outcomes and roll/have the player roll.

The Pre-authored back ground gives context to inform the nowness of the decisions.

Your option B:
(b) is what I take to have been the main focus of discussion in a thread on "fail forward". This is one way of negating player agency - for instance, if the GM has already decided that if the PCs look for the mace they won't find it, then (in my view, and given my preferences) action declarations of searching for the mace have been rendered somewhat futile. Or if the GM has already decided that the waterhole near the foothills has been fouled by a dark elf, then - in effect - the players can't fully succeed on a navigation/survival check. Again, by my lights this is a limit on player agency.

I do not consider player agency the same as you then. If the player says their character goes into his bedroom to get look for his lost keys, then that is what he is doing. He is trying to discover if his keys are in his room. I lost my keys the other day (my flatmate had borrowed them to get something from the car and put them in the kitchen instead of my room where I thought I had left them) I searched the hell out of my room. I did not find my keys (I did find $1000 that had fallen behind my bed though). They was a successful search, I established that the keys were not there.

If I understand what you are saying you consider any deviation from option 1 to just be a version of option 3? It really makes option 3 so broad so as to be basically meaningless
 
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Hmm. Given the question I was answering, I thought he was talking about authoring in the moment rather than just him preferring authoring in the moment.

In a game with pre-authoring, there is as much authoring in the moment as there is without any pre-authoring. You just have pre-authored sources for both the player and DM to draw upon. That's why I said it doesn't move away, but just differently.

Sorry, yes I can see it read that way. I agree that there in a lot of in the moment authoring in all styles. The pre-authoring informing the in the moment authoring is the way I like to play too.
 

But you haven't explained how, except by saying that a pre-authored game can approximate a non-preauthored one by bringing the authorship as close as possible in time to player decision-making and action resolution (eg by doing it all between sessions). To me, that just seems to show that if you approximate a technique you'll get approximately similar results.

I have explained how. The problem is you, as well as some other posters have this very narrowly defined defintion of what a pre-prep campaign has to be. When others who use the techniques or play in the style then try to show/tell/demonstate that it is a much bigger tent than you seem to realize your response seems to ignore it or claim it's not "real" pre-prep or it's approximating improv (even though material is being created outside of play)... Once you're willing to actually listen to those who use these tools in a different way you'l be able to better understand the flexibiltiy of the playstyle, but until then this is the adult equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going... "nuh uhn that's cheating!!"

Upthread, you've said that introducing some fictional element in response to a failed check is just like randomising the introduction of that element. And other posters (eg @Emerikol, I think @Maxperson) have talked about randomly determining whether or not an object is dropped while climbing, rather than narrating that as a consequence of failure. To me, these suggestions are like saying that introducing some event (say, PC death) in relation to a failed check (say, in combat) is no different from just rolling a die to see if a PC dies. I think most RPGers would think there's a big difference between actually playing through a combat, in which the players get to make and resolve action declarations for their PCs, and the GM just saying "There's a 30% chance your PC dies in this fight" and rolling the percentile dice. Introducing adverse fictional elements by way of "fail forward" narration is extending this common RPGer intuition to a greater range of story elements and consequences.

No it's not equivalent. In my comparison it is a single roll compared to a single roll (Skill check vs. percentage). Your example compares a single roll (which lacks the variation, chance for real-time decision making, chances for extremes, etc. that the multiple rolls and rounds in a combat allow for) to an entire combat... of course there were posters on this very forum who did this (to a lesser extent) in 4e when they substituted SC's for actual combats so it may not be as improbable as you make it sound.

But that's the whole point of using "fail forward" - on a success, the fictional situation becomes as the player (and PC) desired, as reflected in the terms of the action declaration; on a failure, the fictional situation becomes in some way contrary to that, as authored by the GM. The player's failure gives the GM licence to introduce some complication.

The reason I was able to introduce the dark elf as I did, or have the mace be with the dark elf; and the reason that @chaochou was able to have the tribe/cult turn on the PC in his game; was because the players declared checks and then failed them! Had those checks succeeded, the players (and PCs) would have got what they wanted: in my game, the PCs would have made it to the ruined tower without any of the waterholes being fouled, and they would have found the mace when they searched for it; in chaochou's game, had the check succeeded the tribe would have done as the PC wanted (and not instead tried to burn her).

Hence the whole idea - as discussed by designers like Robin Laws (in various HeroWars/Quest books), Luke Crane (in BW books), etc - that the game unfolds as a back and forth between success and failure.

Yes but the power is totally skewed towards the DM... the player must declare their stakes upfront, locking them into a rigid success state while the DM can choose any outcome he wants as long as it generates logically from the fiction. I also disagree (at least going by the examples that have been posted in this thread) that the situation has to become contrary to the declared success state in some way. In the earlier mountain example, dropping the rod is in no way "contrary" to climbing the mountain... or was this example incorrect?

But the GM is not producing the story s/he wants. S/he is not in charge of action declaration; and s/he doesn't decide the outcome of the dice when they are rolled. S/he is generally in charge of scene-framing, but the basic principle of these games is that scenes should be framed with reference to player signals (expressed via build and play of PCs, and sometimes involving special mechanics like BW Beliefs and Instincts) - which is quite different from the pre-authorship that causes the "pinball" experience @sheadunne referred to upthread.

First I never said the DM is creating the story he wants... I said he has greater power to push the story in the direction he wants it to go... which I honestly think is kind of self evident, as I stated above the DM doesn't have to declare his fail state (but the player has to declare his success state ahead of time) and thus has way more ability to exert force on the direction of the "story".

@pemerton... all pre-prepped games (as explained and shown by various posters who actually utilize the tools) do not cause a pinball experience... and that's all I'll say (again) on that matter.

The story of the dark elf in my game ended with the dark elf being taken prisoner, then tortured and interrogated, then dying as a result of that torture. The dark elf being taken prisoner was a result of a successful player check. The dark elf dying under torture was a result of a failed player check (or maybe more than one - I can't remember the details now). As for the mace, as I recounted already upthread it ended up washing down the stream (a failed check by a player whose PC was trying to recover it from the dark elf's cave) and being recovered by the two PCs who were wanting it (a series of successful checks to intimidate and then burgle some Keep servants).

I didn't want that story. Nor did I not want it. It hadn't occurred to me that things would unfold like that until they did.

What is the outcome that I pushed the game towards?

You wanted a story around a Dark Elf and you got it. Again I never said you write the story or control the story (I'm starting to see a patern here with the 100% or 0% classification you tend to use with everything)...but you used the failed check to push the story towards something YOU had been thinking about and prepping beforehand. There may have been some signal from the players that they wanted to deal with a Dark Elf, but if there was it's not apparent from your example (again why I feel play examples can at times muddy the water since they are often incomplete in the information they convey)

I think this is the third, maybe fourth, time that I've cited this Paul Czege passage in this thread:
There are two points to a scene - Point A, where the PCs start the scene, and Point B, where they end up. . . . Good narrativism [= story now, "fail forward", etc] will . . . [let] the GM create a compelling Point A, and let the players dictate what Point B is (ie, there is no Point B prior to the scene beginning).​

. . . [A]lthough roleplaying games typically feature scene transition, by "scene framing" we're talking about a subset of scene transition that features a different kind of intentionality. My personal inclination is to call the traditional method "scene extrapolation," because the details of the Point A of scenes initiated using the method are typically arrived at primarily by considering the physics of the game world, what has happened prior to the scene, and the unrevealed actions and aspirations of characters that only the GM knows about.

"Scene framing" is a very different mental process for me. Tim asked if scene transitions were delicate. They aren't. Delicacy is a trait I'd attach to "scene extrapolation," the idea being to make scene initiation seem an outgrowth of prior events, objective, unintentional, non-threatening, but not to the way I've come to frame scenes in games I've run recently. . . . I'm having trouble capturing in dispassionate words what it's like, so I'm going to have to dispense with dispassionate words. By god, when I'm framing scenes, and I'm in the zone, I'm turning a freakin' firehose of adversity and situation on the character. It is not an objective outgrowth of prior events. It's intentional as all get out. We've had a group character session, during which it was my job to find out what the player finds interesting about the character. And I know what I find interesting. I frame the character into the middle of conflicts I think will push and pull in ways that are interesting to me and to the player. I keep NPC personalities somewhat unfixed in my mind, allowing me to retroactively justify their behaviors in support of this. And like Scott's "Point A to Point B" model says, the outcome of the scene is not preconceived.

So the DM creates point A... and upon failure controls point B... so the players only control point B in succeeding... is that correct?

The introduction of complications is not meant to be independent of the GM's inclinations. As @LostSoul said, you play with someone because you like their ideas, and they way they deploy them. But the GM has no capacity to control outcomes, for the reasons I already stated in this post.

(Notice also that Czege contrasts the use of "secret backstory" with scene-framing/story now/"fail forward"-type techniques.)

Youu haven't shown at all what (outside of the logic of the surrounding fiction) constrains the DM in forcing the story to go the way he wants to. Even @Manbearcat concedes that there are no rules that totally safeguard against this. As to @LostSoul 's comment... I totally agreed with him. I suggest you might want to go back and se how this tangetn started and what my actual stance is before continuing to argue against the position you think I hold.

The phrase I have consistently used is "pre-authorship". I have contrasted play based on pre-authorship - and attendent techniques in play like adjudicating consequences by reference to secret backstory, and the players, by the play of their PCs, discovering or exploring the fiction that the GM has pre-authored - with play based on authorship in response to player action declarations.

EDIT: Fine we can use the term pre-authored...

Writing up stats for an NPC, or drawing a map for an inn or a castle or a cave, or even writing up a possible backstory for an NPC, is not pre-authorship. It does not establish any fictional content. You think there is some contrast between having an idea for an NPC, and writing that NPC up mechanically - I don't feel the force of the contrast myself, especially for a mechanically heavy game like 4e or BW where an idea isn't really fleshed out until it's given mechanical content.

I don't think it falls into the ralm of improv either... especially not on the spot improv.

(In 4e, of course, a whole lot of pre-statted stuff is available via the Monster Manuals, the trap/hazard stats in a range of books, etc. BW has less of that, and so I have to build more of my own.)

Yet what you claim to pre-prep exceeds generic stats for monsters...

Someone a long way upthread - I think @Campbell - already made the point that "fail forward"/scene-framing play isn't about never preparing material, but is about when the fiction is authored. What is of interest to me is when and how the fiction is authored, and how this is related to adjudication of action declarations (very broadly speaking - is it an input, via "secret backstory", or is it an output, via "fail forward?).

Perhaps you should refocus your posts to zero in on this because right now we are discussing multiple facets of the different playstyles...
 
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Fair warning. I'm not sure how long this is going to be, but I'm feeling a TLDR coming on. First, I'm going to throw out some key terminology to differentiate what I'm talking about (and have been talking about).




Situation: This is a singular conflict/scene whereby the PC, or PCs, must deal with adversarial elements/antagonists that interpose themselves between PC(s) and goal. In Story Now systems, the game engine will have PC flags that serve as identity/ethos/relationship markers. The GM mandate is to invoke/develop adversarial elements/antagonists that directly oppose this "flagged thematic material" such that they serve to test the PC's willingness/capability to actualize it or not (*). That is the entire point of play.

In every Situation, players will play their PC's interests to the hilt while the GM plays the opposition. The player inhabiting their PC fighting for their interests (emotional, ideological, utility, et al) against opposition is necessary for players who immerse in a certain way. The player will declare actions, they will be resolved per the system's machinery, and eventually this will settle all disputed matters in the immediate Situation. This will serve to propel the fiction such that it snowballs from Situation to Situation.

In Freytag's Dramatic Structure, this would be Exposition and the beginning stages of the Rising Action ("scene-framing"). The context of the Rising Action will be (a) the point of play (* above) and (b) the relevance of prior established fiction. Up for grabs for resolution in a Situation would be the Rising Action, Climax, Falling Action, and Denouement.

Metaplot: This is when there is pre-authored material that extrapolates into the fiction's future beyond mere Situation (possibly all the way up to the end stages of Falling Action where the finality of the metaplot is up for grabs). This material is most often "PC flag neutral". The point of the material being "PC flag neutral" is to exhibit the evolution of independent offscreen happenings within the fiction. The reason for this is because folks who immerse in a certain way feel that it is necessary for "a living, breathing, world" and therefore PC habitation.

Railroad: The imposition of Metaplot whereby players have little to no say in outcomes (most or all of Rising Action, Climax, Falling Action, and Denouement) during a string of Situations which represent the consequential aspects of play. There is pre-authored material to play through in order to get to a moment in the pre-authored fiction whereby the players have access to dictate outcomes (this is typically the big showdown of the Falling Action, right before Denouement occurs).

GM Force: Subversion of player agency (as expected by social contract, system, or both) by the GM. It is an instance of imposition whereby the GM dictates the outcome of any of the Rising Action, Climax, or Falling Action which is supposed to be up for grabs for the players. Even if only to move the Rising Action to the Climax, this still means that the integrity of player agency has been compromised because the trajectory of play forward has been propelled by the GM's whim/interests.

Finally, if the Denouement is propelled toward pre-authored material AND its evolution toward that path is incoherent (with respect to violating PC build flags - such as Burning Wheel Instincts, the present Situation and/or the prior established fiction), this would be another instance of GM Force.

Illusionism: This is GM Force covertly deployed (typically manifesting as the manipulation of mechanical resolution toward a GM sought end).




I'll post later on this. I have somewhere to be.
 

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