Failing Forward

How do you feel about Fail Forward mechanics?

  • I like Fail Forward

    Votes: 74 46.8%
  • I dislike Fail Forward

    Votes: 26 16.5%
  • I do not care one way or the other

    Votes: 9 5.7%
  • I like it but only in certain situations

    Votes: 49 31.0%

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
What I'm saying, in probably an awkward way, is that those things shouldn't define the character, they should test and challenge what the character has already developed during play. At the start of the game, I'm not in a position to know those things, I can guess at them, but that's about it. There's nothing more frustrating for me than to have to change concept, belief, goals during play because I didn't have enough play time to make accurate decisions. Sandbox play tends to exaggerate this because the choices seem to get more locked in because of the pre-authored nature of the choices. Do you go left or right? Ummm, left looks interesting and fun. Nope, I made a mistake, it's not really interesting to my character after all, although it might be fun for the player. I'll just sit back and wait for it to be done (uninteresting), leave and derail everyone else's fun (Jerk), or alter my character to fit into the game and the direction it's heading (should have been unnecessary). Even in a game that [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] would run, I might still find myself in this situation, but I have more confidence in the types of play, that by the nature of the system and the play style, would be able to find a way to make it more individually interesting to my character. That's just based on my experience and not anything else.

As someone who both runs and plays a sandbox game, I can tell you that nothing locks your character into anything unless you the player do so yourself, or a game mechanic forces something on you. The sandbox word doesn't do it itself. As a player, I come up with character concepts prior to game play, but countless times, how things developed during game play altered my concept to degrees ranging from minor to hey, this is nothing at all like the PC started. PCs can grow and change according to how the PC is tested and challenged during game play.

I find it's significantly more difficult for this type of play to work under pre-authoring for me, since the GM is purely reactive to the characters rather than pro-active.

Pre-authoring does not require the DM to be purely reactive. A mix can be, and often is done.

I found myself, when I ran these types of games, steering players toward pre-authored materials (as I was encouraged to do by the system), rather than react to the choices and needs the players had.

Why? I feel no need to steer the PCs towards anything. I don't understand why you would feel as if you needed to steer the PCs towards pre-authored things.
 

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sheadunne

Explorer
As someone who both runs and plays a sandbox game, I can tell you that nothing locks your character into anything unless you the player do so yourself, or a game mechanic forces something on you. The sandbox word doesn't do it itself. As a player, I come up with character concepts prior to game play, but countless times, how things developed during game play altered my concept to degrees ranging from minor to hey, this is nothing at all like the PC started. PCs can grow and change according to how the PC is tested and challenged during game play

Unless what I want isn't provided by the game world. Then either the GM has to create it in response to my declaration or I don't get that option. If the GM creates it, then why bother creating the world to begin with instead of just creating things in response to the goals as they develop? If I don't get that option, then you can't really say it provides the same experience.

When I play in a sandbox, which may be a pre-authored world like FR or Spelljammer or Westeros or some other setting, then there are exceptions that influence my character choices. That's an agreement made between players and the GM prior to the start of the game. It's a perfectly fine way of playing, but I'm not particularly interested in playing that way anymore. It doesn't accomplish what I want in a game. I have no investment in the world beyond my character. I don't care if there are barbarians in the north until I choose to interact with them, until then, they don't exist. Since they don't exist, I'd rather not have them developed or influenced prior to my engagement with them, because I want to know that they were created specifically for my interaction at the time of my interaction. For me it reinforces my connection to the game world and my character. Otherwise I'm a tourist, visiting someone else's barbarians. That's not a play style I get invested in. Sure I'll play with friends, but I'm not going to devote much of my time to caring about it. I'm certainly not going to run a game like that, it doesn't satisfy me.
 

Imaro

Legend
Correct. Which is why I play my own system that focuses more specifically on what I want. If there was a system I found more accurate to my preference, I would be playing it. FATE is okay but it doesn't meet my needs, nor do other games like BW, Dungeon World, etc. They all have aspects I like but as a whole their play procedures don't meet my needs, which is more of a bookkeeping assessment than a feeling assessment. Those games are all still focused on "adventure" and getting right to it. I like a slower development than they provide. Most, if not all, of those types of game are designed to get right into the action, they still require the development of concept which I'm not ready for at the start of a game if I want to be invested in it. I can still have lots of fun, but it's not ideal, just as I can still have fun in an AP. Sandbox is another story, but that's just my personal preference.



What I'm saying, in probably an awkward way, is that those things shouldn't define the character, they should test and challenge what the character has already developed during play. At the start of the game, I'm not in a position to know those things, I can guess at them, but that's about it. There's nothing more frustrating for me than to have to change concept, belief, goals during play because I didn't have enough play time to make accurate decisions. Sandbox play tends to exaggerate this because the choices seem to get more locked in because of the pre-authored nature of the choices. Do you go left or right? Ummm, left looks interesting and fun. Nope, I made a mistake, it's not really interesting to my character after all, although it might be fun for the player. I'll just sit back and wait for it to be done (uninteresting), leave and derail everyone else's fun (Jerk), or alter my character to fit into the game and the direction it's heading (should have been unnecessary). Even in a game that @pemerton would run, I might still find myself in this situation, but I have more confidence in the types of play, that by the nature of the system and the play style, would be able to find a way to make it more individually interesting to my character. That's just based on my experience and not anything else.

What does play look like for me? Micro-choices. The types of choices we make every day in our lives that define who we are and our preferences. We all agree on the type of genre we want to emerge into (sci-fi, fantasy, modern, etc). I like to start my character off with what I'm in the mood for, physical, mental, or social play. Some thought into what the character looks like. Maybe a few personality quirks (winks a lot, is grumpy, likes to hug people, etc.). After a few sessions of character interactions and a few decisions where the players make micro-choices and help to define who they are, we'll slowly move into real choices. The GM's role at in the beginning is simply to react and provide opportunity for character exploration. The players need very little from the GM other than to begin to blend the choices into a coherent world (this is sometimes harder than I'd like but it's fun). These micro-choices and character interactions will start to develop into beliefs and goals. Maybe my character, through his interaction with another character, comes to view himself as a helpful person or maybe he realizes he's greedy and jealous. If I had chosen "likes to hug people" I'm now starting to see why he hugs people. If he's helpful, maybe he does it because it will make the other person feel better, and if he's greedy, maybe it's his way of determining what the other person has on him he can steal. I find it important for me, if I am to become invested in the character, if this opportunity is given a spot light at the beginning of the game, rather than throughout the game, when the choices are more significant and death is on the line.

I find it's significantly more difficult for this type of play to work under pre-authoring for me, since the GM is purely reactive to the characters rather than pro-active. The backstory that emerges is not secret and remains in play throughout the game. I've certainly tried to do it taking a more pre-authoring stance, since I've had this preference for a very long time and when 99% of the games were pre-authored heavy, it was less gratifying. I found myself, when I ran these types of games, steering players toward pre-authored materials (as I was encouraged to do by the system), rather than react to the choices and needs the players had. They were still fun games, as most games with friends are, they were just lacking for me. I ran a 3 year champaign in a sandbox 10 or so years ago that was hugely successful, but I found that it wasn't the pre-authored bits that made it so, but rather the focus on the character and the improvisational nature of the way it was run. We had to fight against the system on many occasions and it made me question the reason we were still playing under it (d20), when we could use another system that supported that type of play as a focus was an option (we were already familiar with the d20 system at the time).

End thoughts - find a system that supports your type of play and if one doesn't exist, make it so. It's your fun to be had. And continue talking about it in places like this. It's where I started to question my own needs and begin to find out what I really want out of a game. It's still a work in progress, but progress is being made.

Thanks... I can honestly say I better understand your playsyle and preferences after this post and while they don't line up with me or my groups style... I can see why a more freeform (hope I'm using this correctly) style for both the players and GM would work better for you...
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Unless what I want isn't provided by the game world. Then either the GM has to create it in response to my declaration or I don't get that option. If the GM creates it, then why bother creating the world to begin with instead of just creating things in response to the goals as they develop? If I don't get that option, then you can't really say it provides the same experience.

When I play in a sandbox, which may be a pre-authored world like FR or Spelljammer or Westeros or some other setting, then there are exceptions that influence my character choices. That's an agreement made between players and the GM prior to the start of the game. It's a perfectly fine way of playing, but I'm not particularly interested in playing that way anymore. It doesn't accomplish what I want in a game. I have no investment in the world beyond my character. I don't care if there are barbarians in the north until I choose to interact with them, until then, they don't exist. Since they don't exist, I'd rather not have them developed or influenced prior to my engagement with them, because I want to know that they were created specifically for my interaction at the time of my interaction. For me it reinforces my connection to the game world and my character. Otherwise I'm a tourist, visiting someone else's barbarians. That's not a play style I get invested in. Sure I'll play with friends, but I'm not going to devote much of my time to caring about it. I'm certainly not going to run a game like that, it doesn't satisfy me.

That seems to be a very self-centered outlook. When I play, I'm not playing only for myself. I enjoy when the other players, including the DM have fun. The game is about more than just me, so when things are created for and by the others, that's fine with me and a grand reason for them to exist.
 

pemerton

Legend
He's creating a challenge/setback to get the mace.... that just happens to lead somewhere he wants the PC's to go... I thought the whole point was that the GM could introduce anything (within the confines of the fiction) as a result of failure...
Well, here are some extracts from the statement of the GM's and players' roles in BW (revised rulebook, pp 55-56, 268-69 - I think it's the same in BW Gold):

Beliefs are not arbitrarily chosen. Each one must relate to the situation at hand when the character joins your world. These tie him [sic] to events and thereby create drama as Beliefs cross and conflict with other Beliefs. . . . By openly and honestly setting down their top three priorities, players are helping the GM and the other players get the most out of the game. Now they all know what you're after, and they can help you get it. . .

Beliefs are meant to be conflicted, challenged, betrayed and broken. Such emotional drama makes for a good game. . . .

[M]y priorites when I set down to GM Burning Wheel . . .

* To get across my point/vision/idea (also known as the theme of the game).

* To challenge and engage the players. . . .​

t is the GM's job to interpret all of the various intents of the players' actions and mesh them into a coherent whole that fits within the context of the game. . . . He [sic] can see the big picture - what the players are doing, as well as what the opposition is up to and plans to do. His perspective grants the power to hold off one action, while another player moves forward so that the two pieces intersect dramatically at the table. . . .

Most important, the GM is responsible for introducing complications to the story and consequences to the players' choices. . . .

Players in Burning Wheel must use their characters to drive the story forward - to resolve conflicts and create new ones. Players are supposed to push and risk the characters, as they grow and change in unforeseen ways.


In the case of my upthread examples, the cures on the angel feather, and the pyramid in the Bright Desert, all relate to the war between angels and devils which is part of Ancient History (one of the mage PC's skills) and may herald the coming Apocalypse (and Apocalypse-wise is another of the mage PC's skills). The Dark Elf, as I think I already mentioned upthread, engages the elven ronin PC's Belief that I will always keep the elven ways - and the geography of the dark elf engages the backstory of the mage PC (with his ruined tower in the foothills) as well as the newly-introduced shaman PC, who (among other abilities) summons spirits of the foothills.

If the GM is pushing play towards the Misty Lake, s/he must believe that doing so will somehow engage the players via their PCs' Beliefs - which, in turn, given the way that Beliefs are meant to be authored by the players, must mean that the Misty Lake somehow speaks to or relates to the current ingame situation.

And that ingame situation hasn't been shaped just by the GM - it's an outgrowth of the players action declarations and adjudication. Hence it's not about GM railroading - but is about GM contribution and creativity.

speaking only to how I create and run my sandboxes, since everything cannot possibly be created from day 1 (Both time and imagination are constraints) there are always things being added to the sandbox weekly. My players and I have an understanding that if the character decides to go in a different direction whether motivation/goal wise, exploration wise, or even theme-wise... either in-game flags or out of game discussion should signal this and that will be factored into the sand box at a later time
To me, this seems to be a description of a game that involves less pre-authorship and more authorship in response to player flags and even (perhaps) action declarations. (For the latter - depending a bit on how big a time is a later time.)

Again, why does that matter? A barbarian tribe is a barbarian tribe is a barbarian tribe. There is no effective difference between one pre-authored or player authored.

<snip>

I get that it makes that difference for you. What I'm getting at, though, is that pre-authorship doesn't take any agency away from me as the player.
I've never thought that it effects the agency that you desire as a player. I've been trying to explain the outlook of those designers (and the RPGers who play their game) who deliberately promoted "fail forward" as a technique. And this is related to a certain conception of what player agency amounts to. (Which is different from yours.)

As to why it matters - [MENTION=27570]sheadunne[/MENTION] gives a good explanation in a post not far upthread, to which you replied in the post above this one.

Part of the explanation is that simply raising a barbarian horde isn't likely to be the focus of play in the sort of game that I prefer. The horde will have some more intimate, dramatic/emotional connection to the PC. (A bit like how, in my BW game, it's not just that the world is threatened by a balrog, but that the balrog is possessing the brother of one PC who was also the evil master of another, who (it seems) made the black arrows that killed the beloved master of a third PC.)

If that sort of emotional drama is less important, and if the focus is more on the action/adventure and "external" aspects of events, then the difference between Ed Greenwood's NPCs and NPCs authored by the GM as part of the adjudication of play won't be such a big deal.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
Again, why does that matter? A barbarian tribe is a barbarian tribe is a barbarian tribe. There is no effective difference between one pre-authored or player authored. What's more, since they are pre-authored and the group chose the setting, if I as a player want to go interact with the barbarian tribe, the DM really has no choice in the matter. He can't deny me. The DM isn't giving me that content or forcing it on me. I'm forcing it on him by choosing to go and interact with it.

I don't see a barbarian tribe that comes into existence because I said so to be any better than one that came into existence because Ed Greenwood said so. Both will suit my purposes exactly the same. Neither can be denied by the DM without a bad DM railroading things. Only one, though, has a bunch of stuff already built in to give me ideas and for me to build off of. That makes pre-authoring much better in my opinion.
Why does it matter to you that it matters to others? They are not trying to make it matter to you, as far as I can see, so why does it matter so much to you that they are not like you?

The only answer to the question "why is everyone not like me?" is "because they're not - deal with it".
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Why does it matter to you that it matters to others? They are not trying to make it matter to you, as far as I can see, so why does it matter so much to you that they are not like you?

The only answer to the question "why is everyone not like me?" is "because they're not - deal with it".

Wow. You're waaaaaaay off base here. I don't care how they play. I care when they get how I play wrong, so I explain it to them. I also care that we are having a discussion and I'd like them to explain differences that I don't understand, so I ask questions.

If you don't like the discussion, deal with it.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I've never thought that it effects the agency that you desire as a player. I've been trying to explain the outlook of those designers (and the RPGers who play their game) who deliberately promoted "fail forward" as a technique. And this is related to a certain conception of what player agency amounts to. (Which is different from yours.)

As to why it matters - [MENTION=27570]sheadunne[/MENTION] gives a good explanation in a post not far upthread, to which you replied in the post above this one.

Part of the explanation is that simply raising a barbarian horde isn't likely to be the focus of play in the sort of game that I prefer. The horde will have some more intimate, dramatic/emotional connection to the PC. (A bit like how, in my BW game, it's not just that the world is threatened by a balrog, but that the balrog is possessing the brother of one PC who was also the evil master of another, who (it seems) made the black arrows that killed the beloved master of a third PC.)

If that sort of emotional drama is less important, and if the focus is more on the action/adventure and "external" aspects of events, then the difference between Ed Greenwood's NPCs and NPCs authored by the GM as part of the adjudication of play won't be such a big deal.

Emotional connection is important to us as well. It's just not everything. It would be present even in a campaign where I decided to bring together the tribes to conquer a nation. Why is it not possible for you to form such a connection with an Ed Greenwood NPC? As far as I can see, they can have siblings that are PCs, be possessed, and so on. Very, very few of them are detailed to the point that all siblings are known.
 

Imaro

Legend
Well, here are some extracts from the statement of the GM's and players' roles in BW (revised rulebook, pp 55-56, 268-69 - I think it's the same in BW Gold):

Beliefs are not arbitrarily chosen. Each one must relate to the situation at hand when the character joins your world. These tie him [sic] to events and thereby create drama as Beliefs cross and conflict with other Beliefs. . . . By openly and honestly setting down their top three priorities, players are helping the GM and the other players get the most out of the game. Now they all know what you're after, and they can help you get it. . .

Beliefs are meant to be conflicted, challenged, betrayed and broken. Such emotional drama makes for a good game. . . .

[M]y priorites when I set down to GM Burning Wheel . . .

* To get across my point/vision/idea (also known as the theme of the game).

* To challenge and engage the players. . . .​

t is the GM's job to interpret all of the various intents of the players' actions and mesh them into a coherent whole that fits within the context of the game. . . . He [sic] can see the big picture - what the players are doing, as well as what the opposition is up to and plans to do. His perspective grants the power to hold off one action, while another player moves forward so that the two pieces intersect dramatically at the table. . . .

Most important, the GM is responsible for introducing complications to the story and consequences to the players' choices. . . .

Players in Burning Wheel must use their characters to drive the story forward - to resolve conflicts and create new ones. Players are supposed to push and risk the characters, as they grow and change in unforeseen ways.


In the case of my upthread examples, the cures on the angel feather, and the pyramid in the Bright Desert, all relate to the war between angels and devils which is part of Ancient History (one of the mage PC's skills) and may herald the coming Apocalypse (and Apocalypse-wise is another of the mage PC's skills). The Dark Elf, as I think I already mentioned upthread, engages the elven ronin PC's Belief that I will always keep the elven ways - and the geography of the dark elf engages the backstory of the mage PC (with his ruined tower in the foothills) as well as the newly-introduced shaman PC, who (among other abilities) summons spirits of the foothills.

If the GM is pushing play towards the Misty Lake, s/he must believe that doing so will somehow engage the players via their PCs' Beliefs - which, in turn, given the way that Beliefs are meant to be authored by the players, must mean that the Misty Lake somehow speaks to or relates to the current ingame situation.

And that ingame situation hasn't been shaped just by the GM - it's an outgrowth of the players action declarations and adjudication. Hence it's not about GM railroading - but is about GM contribution and creativity.


I'm curious [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] ... why is it when discussing your playstyle it is always best case scenario with a GM who perfectly exemplifies the mentality to avoid a railroad and follow all play advice but when you discuss pre-authored campaigns they must be worse case scenario and run by a terrible DM who railroads his players?
 

I have no investment in the world beyond my character. I don't care if there are barbarians in the north until I choose to interact with them, until then, they don't exist. Since they don't exist, I'd rather not have them developed or influenced prior to my engagement with them, because I want to know that they were created specifically for my interaction at the time of my interaction. For me it reinforces my connection to the game world and my character.

What connection to the game world? You have just informed everyone that any part of the world that your character hasn't come into contact with may as well not exist. How on earth can there ever be a connection to such a world? What you are describing isn't a game world at all its a holodeck experience tailored especially for you.

A world, to feel real and meaningful, needs to exist beyond the perspective of a single individual.
 

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