Failing to meet prestige class requirements

[LokiDR]

You have no clue at all why I want this class. NONE. You attribute false intent to me. It's not cheese, it's not a power grab. Indeed, the actual intent is to not use the feats unless the role playing situation calls for it, which I am fully aware might result in an alignment change. It IS interesting, to me, and it's a situation that cannot occur in the way you seem to view the game. In your world, a character could not actually use the darker powers to slip back to the eviler alignment (since they no longer have access to them) - they would have to change their alignment first to get to the darker powers again. That makes a lot less sense to me. Sometimes it would be corruption that leads to use of power, and sometimes the use of power is itself the corrupting factor, and not the intent prior to the use. In your world, apparently there is only one option, not both. I would find that more boring and one dimensional I suspect.

You said the power is dark. That implies its use is not good. I would say you can choose, on the spot, to change your alignment and accept what you know to be corruption to use the feats. But, if that happens, you have to work against that corruption. In my view of fantasy, its always easy to fall to evil, but hard to get back to good. Its not one dimentional at all, its the nature of the absolute alignment rules.

Why you would attribute cheese and power grabbing motives to me without actually knowing the situation I don't know. I suppose everyone has a bad night, so I will just chalk your assumption leaping up to that. But in the future, be kind enough to not jump to conclusions about my motives without actually asking me about them first, okay?

I didn't jump to conclusions, actually, I simply responded to what you wrote. You wanted the abilites of the class without meeting the pre-reqs. That much is clear. Then, I went on to question whether this is more cheesy than interesting. As it gives you power without the cost, I call it cheesy. What you actually thought of it, I didn't know until you said so. This doesn't change the fact that I still think its cheesy. It doesn't matter if you think you are powergaming, what matters is if you ARE powergaming. If your motives were only "this would be cool" it doesn't change my opinion of the results. I'm commenting on the results, not on you. You made my comments personal, not me.

 

[CyberSpyder]

And as others have said, the rule in CW doesn't conflict with the DMG. The DMG states that you must fulfill the pre-reqs to take your first level in the Prestige Class. The CW says you must continue to fulfill the pre-reqs to keep your access to the Prestige Class abilities.

Well, I said it doesn't contradict, not that it doesn't conflict. The way the DMG entries are phrased quite clearly suggest that the only time prereqs apply is when the first level is being taken, while CW makes them checked continually. It's quite possible, as a logical matter, to apply them both simultaneously, but in a matter of judging intent there is clear conflict.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Seriously, mistwell, a character idea for yours is a compelling argument for either a) not allowing prc abilities to be kept after a prereq is lost, b) not allowing characters to start above first level, or c) never allowing a and b together. I'm gonna go with c for sure and a long look at a.

No matter how sincear your personal motives might be, taking a cheese level of a frontloaded allignment restricted PrC in the background of a high starting level character now of a compleyely different allignment and keeping the perks is ALL WRONG(tm) and any rule that prevents it is a good rule.

(I'm kinda hoping the whole thing is elaborate satire/trolling, but can't come down firmly on either side)

 

[IcyCool]

Well, I said it doesn't contradict, not that it doesn't conflict. The way the DMG entries are phrased quite clearly suggest that the only time prereqs apply is when the first level is being taken, while CW makes them checked continually. It's quite possible, as a logical matter, to apply them both simultaneously, but in a matter of judging intent there is clear conflict.

My point is that Complete Warrior doesn't override the DMG at all here, it introduces a new rule. As long as that rule doesn't change what the DMG says (and it doesn't), then it fits along side just fine (if you choose to include things from Complete Warrior in your game).

The DMG states that you need to meet the pre-requisites of a PrC in order to take the first level of that class. Complete Warrior states that if you later fail to meet the pre-requisites of the class, you lose many of the abilities that the class granted you. Those two aren't mutually exclusive.

Mistwell, you appear to be seeing a conflict between the PHB and CW. I can certainly see your side of the arguement, but it appears to me that CW is adding additional restrictions to Prestige Classes, not overriding a rule.

 

[MadBlue]

Well, what the DMG actually says about prestige classes is as follows:

"...meaning that the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class." (Emphasis mine)

Similarly, under "Requirements" for each PrC, the exact wording used is "To qualify to become a...", as opposed to "To qualify to be a" or even "To qualify to advance as a."

Taken together, these two facts certainly suggest to me that the original intent was that requirements only mattered for taking the first level in the class. Obviously, that was radically shifted with Complete Warrior. It's a move that I don't feel makes a lot of sense.

It depends on whether or not that part of the text is worded the same way in the 3.0 DMG. If it's different, IMHO that would imply that the original intent in 3.5 is that you don't lose PRC class abilities if you no longer meet the requirements. If it's the same, it's a bit more ambiguous.

MadBlue

 

[Mistwell]

I'm seriously stunned to find that so many people (Kahuna and Loki standing in front) think it is either 1) powergaming, or 2) cheesy to have an alignment change by one factor for a character build. I mean, IT'S ALIGNMENT. How is this a "power" issue at all? How is this a "cheese" issue at all? It's not like alignment is a serious power-balancing issue! It's a COLOR issue! If you remove alignment from the game entirely (like Monte Cook did), you rapidly find that the game looks almost exactly the same (except for a very few spells that detect such things - which I think is itself cheesy since the whole concept that someone is always ethically fixed is silly). And it's certainly not a higher or lower powered world if there is no alignment. Hence, THIS ISN'T A POWER ISSUE.

I think people don't like the concept of taking one level in a prestige class. Well, that's nice. but it's not what we are talking about at all.

 

[Shadeus]

Let me throw another example out there. I have a dwarven defender who for a long time had a 13 Dex. This is the min stat required for Dodge, one of the pre-requisites for the prestige class. After he was done with the defensive stance, he became fatigued which imposed a -2 Dex penalty. By the CW rules, he should lose his dwarven defender abilities for that minute that he's fatigued, right (because he no longer meets the Dodge Dex requirements)?

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I'm seriously stunned to find that so many people (Kahuna and Loki standing in front) think it is either 1) powergaming, or 2) cheesy to have an alignment change by one factor for a character build. I mean, IT'S ALIGNMENT. How is this a "power" issue at all? How is this a "cheese" issue at all? It's not like alignment is a serious power-balancing issue! It's a COLOR issue! If you remove alignment from the game entirely (like Monte Cook did), you rapidly find that the game looks almost exactly the same (except for a very few spells that detect such things - which I think is itself cheesy since the whole concept that someone is always ethically fixed is silly). And it's certainly not a higher or lower powered world if there is no alignment. Hence, THIS ISN'T A POWER ISSUE.

I think people don't like the concept of taking one level in a prestige class. Well, that's nice. but it's not what we are talking about at all.

It is cheesy to start a character at a high level who in his "past" qualified for an allignment restricted prestige class, took one frontloaded level, and also in his past underwent an alligment switch such that he would no long qualify for this frontloaded prestige class but by coincidence probably fits better into the campaign.

I'm sorry you find this assessment insulting. But its not personal, and its not gonna change, your stunned demeanor notwithstanding.

 

[Mistwell]

It is cheesy to start a character at a high level who in his "past" qualified for an allignment restricted prestige class, took one frontloaded level, and also in his past underwent an alligment switch such that he would no long qualify for this frontloaded prestige class but by coincidence probably fits better into the campaign.

I'm sorry you find this assessment insulting. But its not personal, and its not gonna change, your stunned demeanor notwithstanding.

It's the whole "frontloaded" part that doesn't belong in this thread. So, let's remove it. For the sake of the argument, assume the prestige class in question grants a +1 bonus to Profession (Cheesemonger) checks, and that's it.

Now, tell me how it is cheesy, other than the pun itself.

 

[Cheiromancer]

With the dwarven defender- you still have the feat, you just can't use it. If the prestige class required you to have a Dex of 13, you'd be in trouble. That's my understanding, anyway.