D&D General Fallback: Dealing With Dragons Review from dungeonsanddragonsfan.com [[spoilers]]

[LuisCarlos17f]

The review says the novel is "cozy fantasy". I feel surprised. When I read "D&D as cozy fantasy" I imagine something like Witchlight, or "Obojima: tales of the tall grass".

Don't you miss novels from other settings? I can understand Forgotten Realms is the golden blue-eyed boy by WotC but I miss Greyhawk because I discovered it before FR.

Will we see a second Spelljammer novel?

Do you think Birthight could be right for a novel style "Game of Thrones"?

 

[Henadic Theologian]

Well, technically Tiamat and Bahamut are not gods either, they are primordial dragons according to FToD. The the difference is primarily one of origin.

At this point I'm not sure how they even define what a God even is anymore. Are their different species of God?

 

[dave2008]

At this point I'm not sure how they even define what a God even is anymore. Are their different species of God?

I actually think is more clear now compared to most other versions of D&D. Though it is possible definitions were clear in other editions too and I just don't remember as much because I do like the framework presented with FToD and have taken it to heart. What was the definition of a god in a previous edition of D&D?

(From FToD):
"Since they share the same fundamental connection to the Material Plane as their dragon offspring, Bahamut and Tiamat are ontologically distinct from the gods that hail from the Outer Planes. But for practical purposes, they are divine—worshiped by mortal creatures, able to grant cleric spells to their followers, and both ageless and immortal."

So it is fairly clear now that a God is: worshiped by mortal creatures, grants cleric spells, ageless, immortal, and hails form the Outer Planes.*

 

[Henadic Theologian]

I actually think is more clear now compared to most other versions of D&D. Though it is possible definitions were clear in other editions too and I just don't remember as much because I do like the framework presented with FToD and have taken it to heart. What was the definition of a god in a previous edition of D&D?

(From FToD):
"Since they share the same fundamental connection to the Material Plane as their dragon offspring, Bahamut and Tiamat are ontologically distinct from the gods that hail from the Outer Planes. But for practical purposes, they are divine—worshiped by mortal creatures, able to grant cleric spells to their followers, and both ageless and immortal."

So it is fairly clear now that a God is: worshiped by mortal creatures, grants cleric spells, ageless, immortal, and hails form the Outer Planes.*

Not all Gods hail from the Outer Planes. Torm & The Dead Three's origins are also the Material Plane, Some I think are Archfey that got a divine Spark like Eldath & Lurue, some are Primordials that sided with the Outer Planes Gods against their kind and I guess this netted them a divine spark. There might be some Gods who come from the Far Realms as well. Shar & Selune seem to have been created in the Material Plane too.

This suggests there are different breeds of Gods. So I don't really find it clear exactly. I believe 4e had a name for Outer Planes Gods vs Primordials, I'll look it up.

Edit: "True Gods" from the Outer Planes are called the Estelar vs Dawn Primordials vs I guess Dragon Gods etc...

 

[Amphytrion]

I had a long back-and-forth with @dave2008 in another thread about Bahamut and Tiamat, but my understanding from Fizban’s and other 5e material is that they are clearly gods, just not from the Outer Planes. As @Henadic Theologian points out, not every god comes from an Outer Plane (the ones listed in the 2024 DMG alone prove this).

Fizban’s does single out Bahamut and Tiamat over all other dragons, but Io (to my memory) is only mentioned as a myth in the Greyhawk entry—so he’s suffered a demotion of sorts.

All the other Greatwyrms are mortal dragons who have attained Dragonsight and absorbed their “echoes” from other Material Planes. Page 7 explicitly tells us that they are not true “dragon gods”, although mortals may not know the difference. Ashardalon is cited as an example, as is Chronepsis.

Nonetheless, even though he is no god yet, Ashardalon does scheme to attain divinity per page 137 of Fizban’s. I suppose you could decide he got it.

 

[dave2008]

I had a long back-and-forth with @dave2008 in another thread about Bahamut and Tiamat, but my understanding from Fizban’s and other 5e material is that they are clearly gods, just not from the Outer Planes.

I don't know how you could read FToD and come to that conclusion. The book says Tiamat and Bahamut are "...ontologically distinct from the gods..." I don't think it can be more clear than that. Ontology deals with the essence of something, the nature of its being. FToD is saying the very nature of the primordial dragons is different than gods, even if they check many of the same boxes.

 

[dave2008]

Not all Gods hail from the Outer Planes. Torm & The Dead Three's origins are also the Material Plane, Some I think are Archfey that got a divine Spark like Eldath & Lurue, some are Primordials that sided with the Outer Planes Gods against their kind and I guess this netted them a divine spark. There might be some Gods who come from the Far Realms as well. Shar & Selune seem to have been created in the Material Plane too.

This suggests there are different breeds of Gods. So I don't really find it clear exactly. I believe 4e had a name for Outer Planes Gods vs Primordials, I'll look it up.

I agree there are edge cases (particularly D&D's habit of having mortals ascend to god-hood), but again I think the general definition is clear and helpful. I could even make an argument for all gods "hailing" from the outer planes from a certain point of view.

However, I will ask again, has it ever been more clear in another edition?

Edit: "True Gods" from the Outer Planes are called the Estelar vs Dawn Primordials vs I guess Dragon Gods etc...

Where did you get that from. I was really into the D&D 4e lore and I don't remember the gods being referred to Estelar. Not that I read everything, but I would be curious where that came from. My recollection of 4e was that Deities came from the Astral Sea, Primordials from the Elemental Chaos, and Primal Spirits from the Material.