Fallen Paladin

[Goose]

You have to realize that not all paladins fall from grace cause of the thing that is the trigger. Just like normal people they can "snap". So maybe the bad guy puts him in a situation where he only has two choices where someone is gonna die. The paladin may afterword blame himself for it no matter how much that isnt true, then they may do something that would cause them to fall.

Not all paladin fall from grace cause of the deity either. Sometimes they decide to forsake their god cause of something they blame the god for. I think this would be the case where they might become a blackguard.

Oh, none of my players are playing paladins, so im not trying to screw anybody over. I just like to have the ideas in my head.

Thanks for all the replys, i like reading what people think about this.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I play a paladin in one campaign, and I'm thinking of adding Tainted from the Dragon mag, might be fun

That said, the DM screwing a player just because he's a paladin is just silly and wrong.

How often do people put their clerics in situations where no matter what they do, they'll lose their deity?

It's totally arbitrary and for the DM's own amusement, it's in no way there to increase the fun of the game. IMO of course.

 

[Sanackranib]

fallen paladin

I play a paladin in one campaign, and I'm thinking of adding Tainted from the Dragon mag, might be fun

That said, the DM screwing a player just because he's a paladin is just silly and wrong.

How often do people put their clerics in situations where no matter what they do, they'll lose their deity?

It's totally arbitrary and for the DM's own amusement, it's in no way there to increase the fun of the game. IMO of course.

It's not a question of the DM screwing a player just because he's a paladin. Rather it is the DM using adventure hooks and tools to chalange the paladin with more then simple combat. Paladins are held up as the bastions of good and those lofty morals must be chalanged. I don't think that the Idea was to screw the paladin, the origional poster has already said that his group does't have one. He asked how to set one up for a fall and several ideas were proposed. Also as I said when the player overcomes the chalange he should be rewarded appropiatly.

 

[Mordane76]

Originally posted by Elder-Basilisk:
If you really want to set up moral dilemmas for characters, also make sure to make them dilemmas for the character. I see no reason why a paladin would fall from grace for being unable to save someone from the villain. If the villain does the classic "Choose which one of these will die a horrible death routine" it's still the villain who is going to kill them and not the paladin. Just because the villain makes a comic-book speech doesn't transfer the responsibility for his actions to the paladin. The paladin could still fall from grace but it would be because he chose to do so in response to the action--by being consumed with revenge and committing evil acts in order to catch the villain after the fact for instance. Or by torturing the villain to death rather than simply killing him after capturing him at a later point. A paladin may fall from grace as a result of his own actions but never as a direct result of the villain's actions.

And I agree with you, Elder-Basilik; the villian's killing of a relative (in the hypothetical situation we've been working through) isn't what would cause the paladin to fall -- his reactions afterwards may or may not cause a paladin to fall. And while I don't go about willy-nilly wanting to destroy every paladin that comes down the pipe, I do believe that if someone wishes to play the righteous, they have to be prepared for what the wicked may use against them, and if a DM played it the other way around, by pawning the responsibility off on the targeted paladin, then the situation is crap.

Obviously, other ways exist to test a paladin mettle. We've seen the more obvious ways to try a paladin's code, but the best ones are those that cause no obvious physical scars. Insidious evils like those used on Scylla (sp) in FRCS are always the best -- evils dressed as righteousness are what make for the sweetest fallen paladins.

 

[Mordane76]

I play a paladin in one campaign, and I'm thinking of adding Tainted from the Dragon mag, might be fun

That said, the DM screwing a player just because he's a paladin is just silly and wrong.

How often do people put their clerics in situations where no matter what they do, they'll lose their deity?

It's totally arbitrary and for the DM's own amusement, it's in no way there to increase the fun of the game. IMO of course.

The situation you propose -- a NO WIN situation, would be wrong; there is no role-playing value in it. If a player finds no way to keep his god, then it's wrong. Still, there is no guarantee that the ways the player can keep his god will be without some sacrifice, and these are the situations make for a character's development into something more than just a construct; they make the character into a believable, breathing piece of a living story. But I agree -- no-win situations are wrong, useless, and belligerent.

 

[Sanackranib]

fallen paladin

The last paladin that was run in my game "fell" and I had nothing to do with it. the player advanced to 2nd level and made some rather serious judgement mistakes, so he lost his powers. he then chose to talk to his temple to find out why. He was told (its a long story so I'll skip it) and was informed through a vision that they could be restored but the way would be difficult. he was told that he had to defeat a wyvern that was harrassing a nearby village in single combat, with out the use of magic, and couldn't gain any XP until after he defeated it. No magic weapons/armor/potions etc. When I told him this he was already thinking about playing some other type of character and I expected the paladin to suffer a heroic but quick death. It didn't happen. He faught it made several saves in a row and wound up defeating it. Status restored. I made this quest as difficult as I could while still allowing him the possibility to succed (wyvern being a poor man's dragon) and he always had the oppturnity to walk away as a fighter. Both the player and myself remember the adventure with satisfaction even though it occured about 7 or 8 years ago. Chalanging the player is not the same as screwing them over.

__________________________________________________

And I agree with you, Elder-Basilik; the villian's killing of a relative (in the hypothetical situation we've been working through) isn't what would cause the paladin to fall -- his reactions afterwards may or may not cause a paladin to fall. And while I don't go about willy-nilly wanting to destroy every paladin that comes down the pipe, I do believe that if someone wishes to play the righteous, they have to be prepared for what the wicked may use against them, and if a DM played it the other way around, by pawning the responsibility off on the targeted paladin, then the situation is crap.

Obviously, other ways exist to test a paladin mettle. We've seen the more obvious ways to try a paladin's code, but the best ones are those that cause no obvious physical scars. Insidious evils like those used on Scylla (sp) in FRCS are always the best -- evils dressed as righteousness are what make for the sweetest fallen paladins.

_Mordane76__________________________________________

I agree with mordane76, the DM chalanges the player not the other way arround.

 

[Dagger75]

I had paladin who worshipped a god of war. He always fought for the church and did what ever they asked. He was tempted a few times but being good isn't easy I managed. Then while fighting for the church my paladin died. Now mostly it was due to some bad rolls on my part and good roles on the DM, lousy damage on smite evil, never critting on with my blessed weapon cast.

I always wanted to play a fallen paladin so when he was raised he was so mad at his god for failing him (the bad die rolls) he turned his back on the church an left. He was going to wander the land, always wondering why his god betrayed him. I was going to give him rogue levels and basically be a mercanary type but the game ended after that point so never got to flesh him out.

 

[Sanackranib]

fallen paladin

there is no such thing as a no win situation for a good player running a paladin. It's simple either he lives by the tennents of his faith or he doesn't. If he does then he stays a paladin (though death in some cases may be a forgone conclusion, only the player can decide if he dies well)

 

[Vocenoctum]

In the game I DM, there is a walled city in teh swamp, with a small order of paladin's. They had been attacked by a dragon, and then some moon rats and then a Grim Reaper and finally one of the NPC paladin's renounced his oaths, decried the faith that kept on pounding him without relief, and walked away.

He was still a LG character mind you, and I simply applied my Reluctant Prophet idea to him and the player ended up helping him defeat an evil monastery in the swamp.

I think a paladin, especially an adventuring one, has enough things testing him on a regular basis. He has to apply his code while surviving the world around him.

If there's a major villain that has taken a personal interest in him, that villain would really need to be motivated in order to set about to ruin the paladin's life in such a way. It seems easier for the villain to simply kill the paladin at that point.

But, I consider a lot of the stuff to be too comic booky for my tastes. YMMV.

But, as I said, the same rules apply to the paladin as any other PC. If the Uber Villain has these convoluted plans to make the paladin lose his paladinhood, he would also work to turn the cleric from his deity, or chop off the rogue's hands, or make the wizard forget how to work magic or.. whatever.

You don't have to screw over a paladin just because he's a paladin. IMO.

 

[Sanackranib]

fallen paladin

I call it the "Bond Syndrome" powerfull characters attract the attention of other powerfull characters. The Good party tends to upset the well laid plans of the arch villian. At that point the villian has a chalange or a worthy opponent. he doesn't want to simply kill them he wants to humiliate them as an example for not only his rivials but also his own people. This opens up a lot of roll playing opportunities and also allows the players a chance to escape/foil his plans all over again. It's rare but on occasion I have witnessed the party use those very same tactics on the villians - and for the same reason - they wanted to make a point.