Fallen Paladin

[Celtavian]

Re

The "choose between two relatives" angle will not cause a Paladin to fall unless he or she is weak in faith. I don't know about you, but you ever talk to a Christian who truly believed in the afterlife, and I mean really, really believes in the afterlife. Well, a Paladin is like a Christian of this type taken to the extreme. (Not a religious discussion, I am simply making a point.)

If you threaten a Paladin with a choice between relatives, he need not make a choice, especially if he firmly believes that his or her relatives will be rewarded in the afterlife. It doesn't mean that he do nothing, but he need not make a choice either. He need only attempt to rescue both and if he fails, then he has not done an evil act because he tried to do what was best. The Paladin can even use such an event to strengthen his or her faith because he or she trusted that in the faith of their relatives.

The only reason this works in modern day films is because the afterlife is an unknown for most. In a D and D world, the afterlife and the existence of the heavens is considered a fact. There is no ambiguity or disagreement to cause a Paladin to doubt.

The best way to make a Paladin fall is through subterfuge, whether in romance or politics. For example, an evil lord with a good reputation might corrupt an official of the Paladins church, this can be especially potent if the paladin follows a lawful neutral deity, and then use the official to hinder or mislead the Paladin.

This can be as simple as sending the Paladin away while his or her family is in danger to sending the Paladin on missions of a questionable nature. It all depends on how your player plays his Paladin.

 

[Lygah]

We had a Paladin fall in just the last session, its been a semi comedy game, we've been trapped in a funhouse, where everything is evil, and I mean everything, the walls, the floors, the air, the neverending bag of peanuts we've been living off of. In the beginning the Paladin was very gung ho , smiting evil at every turn, but it kept dawning on him more and more, there was just too much evil, more than any one dwarf could tackle in his lifetime, this campaign also saw a cleric of Pelor turned to absolute evil and the wizard crack and become a naked barbarian. My paranoid halfling rogue fit right in though. All in all overwhelming, neverending evil can do it in time.

 

[Mordane76]

Generally I agree with you, Sanackranib, on there being no such thing as a No-Win Situation, except in the case of poor DM judgements calls; the No-Win that I proposed (at least in my own head) was a situation where no matter what the paladin did, he would fall. Now, in the real world, such a situation is hard to fathom. In a game-world that upholds most of the concepts from real life, it is equally hard to fathom. But DMs aren't the real world, and they can foul up. No-Win Situations result from poor understanding by the DM, and shouldn't be an issue in a game run by an experienced, patient DM.

I think the Hero's Dilemma situation we've been kicking around is a good example of, to use the proper tool analogy, using a backhoe to dig a hole for a dog-bone -- it elicits the desired situation, but it's not surgical by any means. It's blatant, destructive, and potentially unnerving. It should work well against young paladins, those new to the faith and/or weak in their faith (like Celtavian said). It also depends on the structure of the afterlife in the campaign -- if there is a place where good people go, then obviously this should be far less effective. But we must remember, even Christians feel that great remorse (a la Bram Stoker's Dracula) when those close to them die; we know they're in a better place, but that doesn't mean we don't still want them here, because there still can be those little nagging doubts like, "What if we're wrong, and there is no afterlife," or the sudden realization (for the holy warrior) that this is all because he wasn't there due to obligations to the church. While those strong in the faith should take this as the wages of a righteous life and redouble their efforts, the novices may not fair as well.

Surgical and insidious is definitely the way to go with more experienced paladins -- blunt force trauma of the magnitude required to make such paladins fall tends to turn them into uncontrollable machines of grief/rage-driven destruction. Surgical removal of their virtue can forge the righteous paladin into the perfect tool of evil -- controlled, obedient, and fervent for the cause he now espouses.

Also, Celtavian, the Hero's Dilemma can be used to elicit the situation, and if the paladin either pass through it easily (makes no choice because of strong belief in the afterlife, manages to save both, or even though he saves one or none doesn't choice to blame his god), then all is good and the situation has served its purpose -- the paladin has been tested, and found able. If he completely flies off the handle (renounces god and title, declares desire to destroy all things associated with the church that took him from his relatives, etc.) then the situation has served its purpose -- the paladin has been tested, and found lacking. Finally, if a grey result occurs (the paladin doesn't outright renounce his god, but begins to slowly act like those he once fought during his quest for vengeance), then the situation serves an even greater role-playing purpose -- the paladin has been tested, and is still being tested. Those around him can help make the difference in whether he returns to the straight and narrow or simply slides into the darkness, and that makes for great role-playing!

 

[Greybar]

Self-Doubt

There is all this evil in the world, and it's bigger than me. I can't defeat it because I'm not good enough. I'm not strong enough, not wise enough.

I made a mistake and a dozen people in a local village died. I can't bring them back, can't make recompense. I underestimated the enemy and people died. They trusted me.

Then weeks later evil was too numerous and a party member died. I had expended my one spell for a bless already, and used my lay on hands to keep someone else up and fighting. I wasn't able to stop that Worg from breaking through our lines, and its bite killed our friend and companion. If I hadn't used all of my grace to heal the bard, I could maybe have saved her. If I was a man of greater grace in the eyes of Heironeous, then I would have been able to focus his holy power enough to to heal her. They trusted me.

A drow has been able to control my mind through spells and made me draw my companions into danger. We barely fought our way out, but the fault for the trap was mine. They followed me.

In a dream, a former paladin told me of how Heironeous no longer cares for this kingdom. That the church and the royalty are struck through with cowards and traitors. He asked me to extend my hand, and when I did so he severed it from my arm. My sword-hand. Though it was but a dream, the strength has not returned to my own arm. Does Heironeous no longer shine brightly through me? Am I too poor a vessel for his glory?

The list goes on and on. It's easy for your mind to turn to the defeats and not the victories.

The key is that the GM is not forcing my paladin to fall. It's something that he's set up, but I'm choosing what path to take. The game is in hiatus now, but it looks like Reginald will pull through. But it's entirely possible that Reginald will remove himself from the order, become a free sword, and continue on his quests without the holy mantle...

The wonderful thing is that other members of the party are involved (though they may not know the full consequences). The bard is Reginald's best friend, and each of them help support the other when the weight of the quest is too much. The druid has wisdom and compassion that he strengthens Reginald with, even if they don't always see eye to eye.

John

 

[Sanackranib]

fallen paladin

mordane makes a good point here
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"Also, Celtavian, the Hero's Dilemma can be used to elicit the situation, and if the paladin either pass through it easily (makes no choice because of strong belief in the afterlife, manages to save both, or even though he saves one or none doesn't choice to blame his god), "
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but there is an option not yet considered. Have any of yu seen the usual suspects?

Remember when the mob kidnaped Keyser Sorse's family, not only did he not rescue them he killed them himself because they would be better off in heaven in his eyes then to have to endure the trama that they already went through and possibally have to go through the same thing again. He then proceded to wipe out all those who he felt were responcible for the death of his family. because in his eyes they were dead befor he killed them and he was showing mercy. Not a paladin doing somthing this extreme is well on his way to becoming a reaver or blackguard, but he need not go to this extreme for the above example to still be a possible senerio

this thread is getting some really excelent responces