Fallen World- 13th lvl homebrew (dark and mature)

[Neurotic]

Another sigh

No, I said if MOST people, not SOME, support it.

Yes, Robocop is good example of unlawful vigilante. He destroyed half the town because he believed to be right. (And because he was programmed that way, it was programming bug )

Just on the side note: how many innocents were (or could have been) hurt when those robotic robo-cops started shooting at him and all around him in front of corporate building. He didn't stop because of that...(if I got some facts wrong forgive me, it was at least 10 years ago...)

Should we close this discussion? I do believe you're upholding today's Good laws instead of laws in general, but that's something you'll have to resolve with our Game Master. I'll admit that there is lots and lots of gray area in this regard.

Planar example: Githyanki are ruled by a lich queen after 60+ generations of evil rulers. If Vlaakith had a heir and she is killed/replaced, would that heir be legitimate (I'm sure she is evil just not what exact evil). Or New and Improved goverment (TM) would be legitimate?

 

[Caros]

Oi.

I've seen this arguement more times than I care to count, and it leads to a whole bushel of problems that, if taken out of context invalidate the paladin class itself.

Take for example, a paladin visiting "X" Evil nation. He sees a woman being beaten to death in the streets, she's a slave and it is legal in this nation for her to be killed this way. If you argue that the paladin code says a paladin must consider any government that holds sway over a large area as legitimate, the sheer act of seeing this causes a paladin to lose his abilities.

Why? Simple. If he interfears, he is breaking the laws of a legitimate government in saving the woman. If he does not he is willfully committing an evil act, or at the very least he is not helping an innocent in need, which is a different violation of the paladin code.

The simplest solution then, is to have a governments legitimacy decided by the paladin's order. Thats one thing a lot of people tend to forget, most if not all paladin's belong to an order, and most of those orders will at some point say "Laws against slavery are abhorent to the mighty "X" and need not be considered legitimate" In this situation the paladin can rush in and save the damsel without any negitive effect or hard moral choice to himself.

Just my two cents anyways.

And on that note, my character build is now a work in progress. Should be up before 12:00 ish hopefully.

 

[Neurotic]

Deus ex machina

Yes, order declares it. And that usually means calling upon their patron god. I agree and thank you for giving us way out of the maze

It's 04:30 PM and I'm going home. Any other who wants to discuss various topic can find me tomorrow.

Try also Skype: simpi238 or MSN s_hajnal#@#hotmail.com (remove hashes)

 

[Wrahn]

Robocop is closer to Lawful Neutral than Lawful Good. (At least in the first movie)

If all else fails, I believe the paladin is intended to be more good then they are lawful. Their code prohibits them from associating with evil people, but may freely associate with chaotic, they smite and detect evil, not chaos. If there is a conflict between their Ethos (Law/Chaos axis) and Morality (Good/Evil axis) then I believe they should go with the good. Save the slave and try to make amends legally in the above example. I certainly know that I would not punish a paladin for doing such.

Of course if the paladin was sneaking into the evil city to free the princess and saw the slave being beaten to death and did nothing... Well I would probably not strip him of his status either, but I would make sure his conscious played on him, but then I would have been kind of a jerk to have put the paladin in the situation of putting his party and mission in danger versus saving the innocent to begin with.

In the end, a paladin has enough trouble with the right thing being the stupid thing that I believe straightjacketing them into having to obey a Chaotic Evil authority figure is just down right mean spirited.

Taken to extremes, a paladin would lose his status if a Demon had enslaved a village and when the paladin came to stop him, the demon tossed him a baby and told him to eat it. If he doesn't he is not following the "legitimate" authority (ruler of the village, the villagers all accept his rule, because if they don't they will die), if he does he is commiting a horrific act (cannabilism and murder).

 

[Shayuri]

I'm pretty sure being Lawful doesn't mean you have to obey every law.

It means you're an orderly person...you're organized, you do things in habitual, predictable ways.

Even a paladin, who's devotion to Lawfulness is above and beyond the norm and who DOES have an obligation to obey and follow laws of conduct doesn't have to obey and follow ALL laws of conduct. Paladins have a very specific code of honor. That's what they have to obey. A paladin might, by virtue of being very "lawful" and very "good," try to recognize and honor the laws of a foreign land when doing so wouldn't violate his paladin vows.

Similarly, just because he's in a nation where's okay to steal...that doesn't mean he'll steal. He is guided by his own code, the Paladin Oath, first and foremost, and he carries it with him everywhere he goes. A law that requires him to break the oath can be ignored without him becoming "chaotic."

 

[Jemal]

Allright, I think I'm gonna stop arguing about it, b/c I have yet to meet a fence-sitter on this issue.. Everyone seems pretty adamantly placed about what Pallies can/can't do, and thus the circular arguments deliver nothing but frustration.

I will say TWO things about it :
A) I disagree Whole-Heartedly with Neurotic's point of view, but still recognize that, as opinions, they are both equally valid.

B) Upon checking, I note that The Paladin's code doesn't actually require you to FOLLOW the orders of legitimate authority, merely to respect the fact that they ARE legitimate. Anybody who's read a good book or any comics knows that it's possible to RESPECT someone even as you are trying to destroy them.

 

[Neurotic]

Thank you, Jemal. I'm looking forward to in-game discussions of Ebon vs. Sky...er...Windwalker

I don't think any of us obeys ALL of the laws. Sometimes just because they are silly, sometimes out of habit, some we are not aware of etc. Paladin should try to obey all the laws to such extent that he will ask local guards for local laws and customs. Breaking his code vs. breaking a law is no contest.

But other laws SHOULD be obeyed.

Wrahn: what's the point of having paladin in a party if you won't at least sometimes bring it to the fore and make him think of his code first and foremost and then mission and "lesser evils". I'm not saying you do it all the time that would be mean.

But avoiding it is to easy for paladin. Most of it's restrictions are role-playing and as such should get a spotlight from time to time.

 

[Wrahn]

Wrahn: what's the point of having paladin in a party if you won't at least sometimes bring it to the fore and make him think of his code first and foremost and then mission and "lesser evils". I'm not saying you do it all the time that would be mean.

In a world where morality is more than black and white the paladin becomes a difficult character to play no matter how you look at it. If you look at an orc as more than a bag of hit points, defending a village from a rampaging orc tribe is easy, but what about tracking the tribe back to it's home and destroying the tribe? Sure it protects the village, but surely not all the orcs are responsible for the death dealt by their fellows and then there are the orc children...

Then there is the dreaded words coming out of the DMs mouth: unconscious. You can't just execute a helpless prisoner, of course you can't let them go either. A paladin's code will get you into to trouble with very little interference from the DM, specifically setting out to put a paladin in an impossible situation seems to be overkill and unnecessarily punitive to an already bad situation.

Now a DM can advance a plot or make it more exciting by playing on the paladin's code and that is just part of the game. The afformentioned sneaking through the evil city and seeing an innocent in danger can change a situation with little risk (and thus not all that exciting) to a really dangerous one (and thus having the players throw things at you and you having accomplished your job as a DM). I just don't believe in punishing a player for it. It is the player's character and if they do not wish to explore the impossiblity of the moral ideal, then I should not foist it upon them.

 

[Jemal]

so on another Note, did Neph go to GenCon or something? He hasn't been on in 2 days.

Also, Neurotic - I, too, am looking forward to the character interaction.

 

[Nephtys]

2 days, , I've got to live a little too, every now and then.

I'm not too fond of paladins myself, good thing Jemal is not making one. Even in "good" societies the laws do not exist primarily to promote good but to protect property, and societies that put the right of every individual to live a good life ahead of the rights of some people to live better lives than others are utopias that do not work when put into practice. Communism is a Good idea (the ultimate in LG), but idealism is doomed to fail in a realistic world.
The legitimacy of a government in the real world is not legally determined by how the government rules but by international treaty. Basically, (and very basically at that) if a state is a member of the UN its government is legitimate by default. Sovereignty is the fundamental principle in international law. Obviously that doesn't translate into the game and how Greyguards interact with the game-world. Jemal's character can perhaps consider the governments that existed before the invasion legitimate authorities, as a human he probably would. A demon otoh, if it cared about notions of legitimacy, would consider its own authority legitimate. I'm a moral relativist, and you can be too if you want .


Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread. I still need some more concepts from some of you.

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Prospective Players: Concepts= *

ethandrew *
Jemal *
Shayuri
Blackrat
Caros
Autumn *
Gli'jar
Voda Vosa
WarlockLord *
Fenris2 *
Neurotic *
Trollbabe *
Sasquatch
-
Bloodsquig *
Wrahn