Falling from Great Heights

[El Mahdi]

...My point is that the vast majority of D&D players will be playing the heroes, and the heroes have a certain spark in them that lets them rise above the rabble. Luke is clearly a zero-to-hero type. And after a few levels he's got a magic sword, some neat-o magical abilities, a faithful companion, a high rank in an army, and so on. As for Han, he may be ordinary, but he's still a hero. He's more skilled than a regular mook trooper for a start. He's pretty much the sci-fi equivalent to how I envision most fighters and rogues and other 'mundane' martial characters.

I agree completely about the "spark". It's paramount in the fictional archetypes I like also. As is gaining more skills and becoming more formidable as one gains experience. However, I've never read any fictional archetype (excepting super hero's), where jumping off a 200' cliff is a tactical option rather than certain death. And one does not have to be a Fantasy Super Hero to be a Hero.

Even D&D Fiction doesn't break those rational bounds. I don't see why the game needs to either (unless one specifically wants that). I think the core rules should make the most sense when applying logic based on real world experience, rather than needing to understand the in's and out's of an unrealistically contrived world. I want my players to be able to play that way. I want a newbie to be able to come into the game, and not knowing the system, be able to make basic practical tactical and strategic decisions. I don't want them to know, or have to know, that their 10th level Fighter can jump off a 200' cliff and survive with bumps and bruises. I think internal concepts like this, along with not knowing the rules themselves, are also a barrier to new players...one that's easy to fix. If one wants the super heroic world, then apply the rules modifications to the base system and super fantasy hero away.

Newbie: *to DM* (thinking this is a realistic tactical option) This Orc is killing me in this fight. I'm going to have to do something big to survive this. Can I try pushing the Orc off of this 200' cliff?
DM: Uhmm...Sure. Just make an attack roll at a -4. However, if you're succcessful, the Orc gets a Reflex saving throw to see if it grabs the edge of the cliff.
Newbie: Cool. Here goes...*rolls dice*...Woo Hoo! I Hit!
DM: Okay. The Orc rolls it's Reflex Save...*rolls dice*...Nope. No Luck. The Orc falls.
Newbie: Yes!!!!!! Scratch out one Orc!!!
DM: As you look over the edge to where the Orc landed, you see it get up and limp off.
Newbie: Huh... Damn! No wonder it was going to kill me. That things a freaking Super Hero!
DM: No. I just made it using PC rules. It was about 10th level. That's only a couple of levels higher than your character. Youre character could probably survive it also.
Newbie: Huh... 10th level or not, unless it's a Super Hero how the hell did it survive a 200' fall...?!? That doesn't make any sense! What are you going to tell me next, I can survive falling onto molten lava...?!? How am I supposed to make logical decisions if there's no logic to the game...

 

[triqui]

Newbie: *to DM* (thinking this is a realistic tactical option) This Orc is killing me in this fight. I'm going to have to do something big to survive this. Can I try pushing the Orc off of this 200' cliff?
DM: Uhmm...Sure. Just make an attack roll at a -4. However, if you're succcessful, the Orc gets a Reflex saving throw to see if it grabs the edge of the cliff.
Newbie: Cool. Here goes...*rolls dice*...Woo Hoo! I Hit!
DM: Okay. The Orc rolls it's Reflex Save...*rolls dice*...Nope. No Luck. The Orc falls.
Newbie: Yes!!!!!! Scratch out one Orc!!!
DM: As you look over the edge to where the Orc landed, you see it get up and limp off.
Newbie: Huh... Damn! No wonder it was going to kill me. That things a freaking Super Hero!
DM: No. I just made it using PC rules. It was about 10th level. That's only a couple of levels higher than your character. Youre character could probably survive it also.
Newbie: Huh... 10th level or not, unless it's a Super Hero how the hell did it survive a 200' fall...?!? That doesn't make any sense! What are you going to tell me next, I can survive falling onto molten lava...?!? How am I supposed to make logical decisions if there's no logic to the game...

That's a wonderful story. And actually, the newbie is right, the orc is a superhero. He is 10th level, and that's a superhero. If he were a 5th level orc or so, he would had been an ordinary hero, just like Aragorn. At 10th,, that orc was nearly superhuman. I mean... what's the athletic score of a 10th level orc? With his strength, he can beat the long jump record wearing chain mail. He can get bited by a king cobra and won't die. The party mage could try to coup de grace him with his dagger and probably would need a dozen attempts. If he faces a group of militia archers, he need to be hit like 15 times to die.

If that's not a superhero orc, I don't know what it is.

 

[Minigiant]

[MENTION=59506]El Mahdi[/MENTION]

Well... technically your Orc and PC situation sounds pretty off. At about 10th level, an NPC orc has to be very tough (Con) or very lucky (lots of 1's on damage) to survive a 00' fall unless the DM does max HP or is playing 4E. Then the PC really has too tough or lucky to survive jumping after the orc to survive. Especially with lower levels. And after the butt kicking the orc was giving him. The DM is probably giving bad advice.

Either way, both would have to be extremely lucky to have many hit point left and would probably be in single digits. So to me it would be a-okay as the orc is one arrow to the body from death. The orc must have instinctively spinned around, bent his knees, landed on the balls of his feet and rolled. Because the orc is level 10 and is a superhero. Notsomething of our mortal realm called Earth where the level cap is 5.

Now as a DM, I would have still killed the orc. Or at least make the first arrow/rock shot by the PC kill him for the funny.

"Woohoo! I made it. Thank Gru-" Bonk! Thud!

 

[pemerton]

Battlemechs have never really had much of a place in D&D

What about the Mighty Servant of Leuk-O?!

 

[pemerton]

I want a newbie to be able to come into the game, and not knowing the system, be able to make basic practical tactical and strategic decisions. I don't want them to know, or have to know, that their 10th level Fighter can jump off a 200' cliff and survive with bumps and bruises.

<snip dialogue>

Newbie: Huh... 10th level or not, unless it's a Super Hero how the hell did it survive a 200' fall...?!? That doesn't make any sense! What are you going to tell me next, I can survive falling onto molten lava...?!? How am I supposed to make logical decisions if there's no logic to the game...

Are you saying that you've seen this take place in a game? That you would expect this to take place in a game?

Or that it's typical for newbies to play 10th level PCs, who can teleport, plane shift, fight and kill T-Rex's, but then be puzzled that they can survive improbably terrible falls?

Or are you just making stuff up?

 

[BryonD]

Battlemechs have never really had much of a place in D&D and I probably wouldn't want to see them built into the game.

Total pointless tangent:

Fairly early on in OGL days I was doing some play testing for a well known 3PP.
They e-mail saying that they have a new D&D / mech game for me to look at.
I replied that I personally had no interest in mechs in D&D and didn't think I would offer any worthwhile insight or comments.
They insisted that I should look at it because it was really still just D&D.
So they sent me a copy and not all that long after I told them I didn't really have any comments because it was battlemechs and I wasn't interested and didn't have enough background to comment if they got the feel right anyway.

They never asked me to review anything else ever again.

 

[YRUSirius]

30 pages about falling damage in D&D.

You'd think that this would be a major component of the game...

"Hey, let's play Dunk & Dive!"

-YRUSirius

 

[BryonD]

Are you saying that you've seen this take place in a game? That you would expect this to take place in a game?

Or that it's typical for newbies to play 10th level PCs, who can teleport, plane shift, fight and kill T-Rex's, but then be puzzled that they can survive improbably terrible falls?

Or are you just making stuff up?

Just speaking for myself and I can't claim "newbies" but...

I know a lot of players who find this to be a bug in the system. To be clear, it isn't a deal breaker by any means. But it is a little wart on the system.

If they teleport or plane shift then cool.
If they teleport and accidentally end up in outer space, they would expect to die.
If they fight a t-rex then cool.
If they fight a t-rex and the DM says it tears their guts out and crushed their spine "take 27 points damage, it is now your turn", then they would have a problem with that.

There is nothing implicit that suggest severe harm is automatic when you say "teleport", "be in a sword fight", "battle a t-rex". Serious harm may very well easily result, but there is nothing that is a foregone conclusion about it.

Even accepting the amazing stories of rare cases of survival of great falls in real life, it is understood that very serious damage is a foregone conclusion.

The idea that a player of any experience wouldn't have a brief pause over the ease of fall survival seems really odd to me. A player can go through a 100 sword fights and think nothing of it. But describe a sword through their lung and spine and they are going to leap the presumption of PC death. In RPGs fighting T-rex is just a glorified sword fight. But falling from a great height is a "lung and spine" event.

 

[Hussar]

In some games (i.e. not D&D) a T-Rex is a threat to everyone. In some games (i.e. not D&D) a freakin' disintegration ray is instant death for everyone. In other games (i.e. D&D) this isn't the case. Games of both kinds come with certain expectations, and changing those expectations arbitrarily by DM fiat mid-game (or even stating before hand "some things will insta-kill you for realism's sake" without outlining every case) just isn't a good strategy and is certainly no way to design a complex rules-heavy game like D&D.

Can't xp you again, but, this is precisely what I would say if I was smarter and better looking.

El Mahdi - I've repeatedly agreed with you that a separate module for the level of game you are looking for would be groovy. That's fine. I think you'd need a completely separate game honestly, like something like d20 Modern, in order to do it justice, but, it can be done.

My point always has been that I don't want this in the baseline assumptions.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Will like to see a little bit of your RPG. How can a level 20th fighter defeat Dragons, Balors, Liches and Pitfiends, and die to level 1 fighters with common arrows?

Surprise, or numbers. (Sorry for the delay, I was running a game for most of yesterday.)

When attacks are made against your ACvS (Armor Class vs. Surprise), you basically lose most of your AC. A lucky hit can cause ongoing blood loss, punctured lungs, or other effects (again, it needs to be a lucky hit). Also, you have two different HP pools in my RPG (HP and THP [temporary hit points]). If an attack deals only THP (which recovers some every round), you avoid any attached negative effects (such as the lucky shots mentioned above). However, you do not get any THP when you're surprised.

When you're attacked multiple times in a round, you take a cumulative penalty to your AC (excluding ACvS). This means that 20 guys with crossbows give you a -19 penalty as of the last attack (AC tops out around 30 by level 20 in my RPG). Any of the attacks (that finally hit your HP after you lose your THP) that do connect might be a lucky shot, inflicting ongoing blood loss, skull fractures, etc.

So, you can fight a Balor, and if you're not surprised, you're getting your full AC and THP, and he's not making 20 attacks at you. You can have this epic drag-out fight with him, but later on feel threatened when 40 archers appear on the walls when the city guard yells for you to halt.

It's just how my system handles it. Again, I don't think it's the only way, and I don't expect this to be anywhere near base for D&D 5e. But, I am positive that you can have deadly 1st level archers in a world where level 20 Fighters can fight Balors.

Now, players can certainly obtain ways to negate level 1 archers, too. Get enough damage reduction (achievable by level 20, for sure), making you monstrously tough. Get abilities or combat maneuvers that reduce penalties for being attacked multiple times. Etc. But, these are probably only going to apply to a couple PCs in a party of 5-6, meaning most are vulnerable to common arrows while challenging Balors, dragons, liches, and Pit Fiends. As always, play what you like