Falling from Great Heights

It is not just the surrendering, and believe me if I want the PCs to surrender they will find these archers are more powerful then them, its the whole metagaming thinking that goes on.

I have heard players say we can't tackle this it is to high a level for us. Or the mob of over 100 can't hurt us because we are 10 level and the most they can be is third.

Hey the King is most likely a 4 level noble we don't have to listen to him we can kick his butt.

DnD seems to encourage this kind of play and it is something I don't really like.
Luckily for me, I guess, I haven't really had this experience.

Or to put it another way, I've played games with players who (by my standards) don't take the game seriously, but I haven't found that D&D makes any special contribution to this.

Dissatisfaction with D&D attrition-style combat was a major motivation for me to play Rolemaster as my main game for nearly 20 years. 4e brought me back to D&D in part because it changed a lot of things about D&D that I hadn't like - including by making combat about more than just attrition - and also because it addressed some of the issues with RM that I had found increasingly frustrating over the years.
 

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I would like to see rules that make mobs scary no matter your level and ways to make a PC think twice about taking on the entire city guard who have the drop on them and have crossbows and bows aimed at them.

And I want falling to always be a thing that makes you pause and causes your heart to pound.
Such systems exist; my favourite is HârnMaster. You can find a lot of free fanon for Hârn here:

Lýthia.com

...and a quickstart scenario with simplified rules here:

Field of Daisies (w/Quickstart Rules) - Columbia Games Inc. | RPGNow.com

My suggestion is you take a peek at the free stuff (downloads) and, if it interests you, try the quickstart.

There are, in my experience, lots of fun and rewarding ways to roleplay. Not getting access to one way that "rings your bell" often makes that specific way feel like "the ultimate". It isn't - but the best cure for the feeling is to get a good, healthy dose of that style of play. So I hope you find something to 'heal the wound'. And then return to D&D with a fresh set of eyes. :)
 

I would like to see rules that make mobs scary no matter your level and ways to make a PC think twice about taking on the entire city guard who have the drop on them and have crossbows and bows aimed at them.

Honestly I don't. To me D&D high level characters should be superhumans that can take over the city guard if they want (as long as the city guard doesn't have its dose of high level characters). An high level fighter should be something like Thomas in R.E.Feist's books and should never fall in a battle to normal soldiers. And I see no problem in an high level character jumping of a cliff and knowing he will survive (like Lloyd jumping off a cliff in Tales of Symphonia).
In a fantasy game like D&D even high level martial characters should be magical to some extent and not be bound by the same limits of mere mortals. I always imagine that high level martial characters are imbued by the sheer strength of "destiny" that will bring them to a glorious victory or defeat, not a "splat!" sound and a pool of goo.
But I understand that other people may want a more down-to-Earth (pun intended) approach.
 

I have to wonder - why? If you value realism, why play D&D? I'm not being snarky here, I really do wonder. D&D has never pretended to be a realistic game. The Gygax HP quote from the 1e DMG is a pretty clear example of this.

There are a thousand other systems out there that take realism as the baseline for their game. Why would you spend years trying to pound nails with a screwdriver?


Short answer: I'd be "pounding nails" with those systems too.


Long answer...

First: we use what we know. I started out playing D&D (AD&D 2E, but for purposes of this post, I'm talking about D20 D&D: 3E). All my friends played D&D. The only other game any of my freinds dipped into were Rifts and Shadowrun. Neither one of which were systems I like all that much, so D&D it is.

Second: IMO, D&D is one of the easiest and simplest systems to play (barring stripped down D20 games), and one of the easiest to tweak and modify. And, I don't believe that realistic and simple are counterintuitive. It may be harder to achieve from a design perspective, but if one really does the work, then it can be done. Also, the other D20 systems and the stripped down D20 systems I've studied do not focus on realism the way I want, but tend to focus on other feels (such as True20/Mutants and Masterminds with more superheroic, Spycraft with more cinematic, SW SAGA also cinematic, Castles and Crusades with Basic D&D - too simple for me, etc.)...so #1 (we use what we know) supercedes here.

Third: no system in existence is "perfect" for what I want. So considering #2, D&D works best for me to make the game I do want. I have looked at a lot more systems than just D&D, Rifts, and Shadowrun since I first started playing. And for me, I have never found another system as intuitive, easy, and malleable as D&D (D20). Of course though, that probably is also heavily influenced by #1...it's the system I know best.

Fourth: most gamers I know play D&D. So it has the most commonality among the people I play with and DM for. It's much easier to explain changes to a system that people already know, than explain a whole new system.

Fifth (and last): D&D has room for everybody. Having a common base system that works for everybody (as much as possible) is good for everybody that plays D&D. Reticence to that seems to me simply fear of change. Those that don't want it to change are not going to lose "their" game. Resistance to things such as what's been talked about in this thread, seem quite irrational in light of that.

B-)
 

Like I said before, most of the problems with D&D and realism is that there is no official stance on what high level means. There is no core description of what a 15th level fighter is, what he can do, what he can't do, and what he can survive. We know he can take an ogre one on one but but the fight is purely imagination and dice rolls. Stuff happens and we describe.

But with magic, we know what happens. If you throw a powerful wizard off a cliff... wait.. you don't throw wizards off cliffs... only morons do that... many high level wizards can cast Feathfall, some sort of flight spell, or even transform into a bird. There is no huge gap of info when spell are involved.


Most for most of the rest of D&D, it is pure imagination. And no one has the same imagination. Its not a bonus or flaw. It is a feature.

A feature I want to GO AWAY!

Share describing stuff WOTC.
 

I think the thing that bothers me about so much about DnD, which is why I both hate and love the game, is that there are players who metagame so much it ruins the feel of role playing. I end up feeling that I am now playing a video game or some kind of in interactive board game.

Unfortunately, bad players will manage to ruin any game. Like the people who flip chess boards.
 

Again, if you think that 200' fall are lethal, you must make your game inherently coherent and make acid, fire, poison, giant's club hits and so on lethal too.

I do and will when the situation supports it. Sipping an unknown potion to find that it's poison - spit it out and take HP damage. Chugging the entire vial, even upon realizing it's poison. Sorry chum.

Getting hit with a giant's club in the midst of chaotic combat - HP damage due to the many extraneous factors. Hit by a giant's club while completely helpless and nothing threatening or distracting the giant - smoosh.

How many rounds should this "regular person" resist?

No real idea, but maybe a minute or two, so 10-20 rounds. Fire is by no means a quick killer, and it's the smoke that usually does you in.


How many of them have taken hundreds of lethal hits and survived?

By claiming the hit is lethal by default means they don't survive. I can't speak for anything specific, as I could probably spend hours finding stories of horrific attacks and accidents where the victim should all rights be stone-cold dead but manage to survive. Likewise, I'm sure there are stories of people taking what would hardly amount to being a bruise and ending up dying. The body is an amazing engine sometime, but it does have amazingly fragile weak points too.


Does this mean that PCs never suffer a good hit?

What about their opponent's critical hits?

To me, critical hits are the good hits, and they usually hurt quite a lot, if not outright incapacitate/kill.

I'm not advocating a completely realistic system, I realize that D&D and most role-playing in general is on a heroic footing, and the PCs are the protagonists (usually). 4E seems to emulate most action movie heroes, and I'm totally cool with that, I like the feel and the fun that engenders.

Stop there: why?

Because it's common sense, and by rights, PCs should be akin to real people and think like them? Even if you are of epic stature, a PC should still know that they are a meaty bag of mostly water that will likely burst on impact after a 200' fall.

Here, let me put things into context. To me, D&D plays a lot like the movie Die Hard. McClane is a fairly experienced cop, so has a few levels under his belt. He's confident, brash, and willing to take on a mob of terrorists with automatic weapons on his own with nothing but a pistol. He gets into a lot of fights, taking a lot of hits and damage (as evidenced by multiple bleeding wounds), but still keeps going. So, we have HP and healing surges in action.

At one point, he's barefoot and looking at broken glass on the floor. He doesn't just shrug and walk across it, knowing that it's only a few HP damage. There is general concern, but it's either that or be killed (despite it being only a couple of machine guns firing at him, which a player would think "Ah, I can take that").

And at one point he's on the roof, looking down, and rather than jumping down, he takes precautions, because in a real person's head, the fall should be by all rights lethal. He's not even confident that the hose will save him in any way, but it's better than that modern day fireball coming at him (which as a 4E PC, he would likely be able to survive).

So even in an over-the-top action movie, where the hero takes an incredible amount of punishment, we still have him thinking 'realistically' about potential hazards. This is how it should be in game, but because we as players know the rules and damage potentials, we often act in ways that would make no sense to the people living in the actual game world. If the game presented lethal concepts in the core rules, it would lead to players thinking more realistically.

In real life no one would ever face a Trex, but in D&D a high level character can easily defeat it alone, and would know it.

Right, because we don't have T-Rexs. But people have faced down wild predators before, even actively gone out to hunt them. I would 100% bet you that if we still had T-Rexs around, there would be people hunting them (a sad fact, but a fact nonetheless).

The reason a high level PC knows they can defeat a T-Rex alone is because the player understands how the game works, has an understanding of levels and escalating defenses and damage potentials. In the game reality, the PC should have a knowledge of their abilities and skills, but even a lower level T-Rex should still be a concern, even if the PC grits their teeth and faces down the challenge.

If a high level PC get threatened by a dozen country bandits armed with crossbows he would never acquiesce to their demands, because he would know that he can single handendly defeat all of them in a bunch of rounds.

Which, like Elf Witch, is one of the things I really don't like about level based games. It ends up encouraging such meta-game considerations. And because of this, it starts begging the question as to why there are even armies kept. Going just by stats, you're right, a high level character would annihilate an army of level 1 recruits, even if they number in the thousands. If that's the game you like, please enjoy. To me, that's all but incomprehensible.

And indeed, I did adjudicat a situation like this. Back in 2E, with a Paladin in plate armour facing off against a den of kobolds. By the rules, the kobolds couldn't hit the paladin, but they had numbers, and at one point had the paladin overrun and pulled down by a swarm of them. Sure, he killed some, but I played the scene as it seemed realistic to me.

And how do you handle this scenario in game?

But what if the boulder's thrower hits with a critical hit, and the PCs failed his spot/listen/perception/whatever check?

The only real way the game offers to handle such things is by GM fiat. If a character's to die, then they flat out die. But that's rather unenjoyable. So, we go with the natural hazard, and the boulder falls, and we see how hard people are hit by it. All covered by 4E hazard to hit rolls, damage rolls, and the abstractness of HP.

I would actually be inclined to assign injuries, though the game gives no real rules on how to handle such. But a critical hit does not mean it's a lethal hit. So the character takes max damage, and maybe they managed to react at the last second to roll some with the hit to not get pasted.

I can't see how acid, fire, and so many other things could differentiate the damage between a wall and a barbarian.

Not to mention that luck isn't something related to living beings.

Acid, fire, etc. don't differentiate at all. It's that the Barbarian can react to the situation. An Alien spits at the wall with acid, the wall sits there and takes it, and only the potency of the acid matters. An Alien spits at a Barbarian, who manages to duck in time and only take some splash damage to his shoulder.

And certainly, luck doesn't only apply to PCs. It's only that in stories and games, the heroes usually have rather a bit more of it than say a wall in house #3.

24/7?

24/7?

You live in a wonderful world.

I think you're going a bit overboard with the 24/7. No adventuring party can keep on going without rest or breaks. If you're meaning 'ready at a moment's notice', then yes, even in the real world. Fire Fighters and Police respond 24/7. Military soldiers respond 24/7. Sure, they're not facing dragons and T-Rexs, because they are not part of our current modern world. But they respond to the threats and hazards that are there.

And no, I wouldn't say it's a perfectly wonderful world, seeing as we need the above. But it is good to think that there are people willing to put themselves in harms way for the sake of others, much like Adventurers do in D&D.
 

Action movies are still generally heroic characters who are rarely empowered by mystic energies.

A paragon character in D&D would be able to punch the Terminator to death.
 

Action movies are still generally heroic characters who are rarely empowered by mystic energies.

A paragon character in D&D would be able to punch the Terminator to death.

Precisely. A better example, to me, is in Lord of the Rings (the movies since they're easier to picture): during the battle of Helm's Deep Aragorn and Gimli leap in front of a huge column of Uruk-hai and fend them off. Were they probably nervous to do it? Maybe a little, but they were pretty damn sure they could succeed; that's why they did it.

Or when Gandalf faces down the Balrog. He KNEW he was on of an equal power level as the Balrog, just as paragon-tier characters KNOW they're stronger than some country-militia.
 

That is what the book clearly says. Rumor has it that Gygax intended for it to work the escalating way, but that intent got lost/dropped at some point in the process of getting the rules down in print.

Not just rumour, EGG posted as much on this forum. IIRR he was talked out of it by some of his players.
 

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