Familiars and Share Spells Questions?

[Aluvial]

I have a player with a 16th level wizard who has polymorphed his familiar into a stone giant...

Is that possible? Would it be permanent?

Secondly, I've read the rules on sharing spells. If the master and the familiar are within 5' of each other, they share the spells that wizard has cast, correct?

What about spells that have some type of movement (Fly, Expeditious Retreat)? Does a familiar move at the exact same time as his master (currently I don't have a problem with that) so that they can stay within 5' of each other, or does a familiar need to be run by the DM under his own initiative?

What about a spell like Phantom Steed? Do both master and familiar get their own steed?

What about Dimension Door? Does the familiar get his own Dimension Door spell and can he carry others with him?

I suppose I find that my player is stretching the boundaries of these spells or the share spell ability. What is normal and allowed?

Thanks,

Aluvial

 

[RigaMortus]

I have a player with a 16th level wizard who has polymorphed his familiar into a stone giant...

Is that possible? Would it be permanent?

I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. Not too familiar with the difference Polymorphs, but it would be permanent if the duration said so.

Secondly, I've read the rules on sharing spells. If the master and the familiar are within 5' of each other, they share the spells that wizard has cast, correct?

If it is a targetted spell, and the Wizard casts it on himself, he can choose to have it also effect his familiar. So if the Wizard cast Mage Armor on himself, he can have it effect his familiar too. If the spell is a Personal spell (Shield, Expeditious Retreat, True Strike) then the Wizard can choose to have the spell effect the familair INSTEAD of himself.

What about spells that have some type of movement (Fly, Expeditious Retreat)? Does a familiar move at the exact same time as his master (currently I don't have a problem with that) so that they can stay within 5' of each other, or does a familiar need to be run by the DM under his own initiative?

Fly is a targettable spell, so it can effect both (caster and familiar). Expeditious Retreat is a personal spell so the Wizard would have to choose to have it effect himself OR the familiar (but not both).

I don't know the official rule, but we play that the familiar moves at the same time as the master, unless the master specifically wants the pet to do something else (like attack or deliver a touch spell).

What about a spell like Phantom Steed? Do both master and familiar get their own steed?

Not familiar with Phantom Steed, but it would follow the same rules. If the Wizard can choose the target of Phantom Steed, the familiar would get his own. If it is a Personal spell, he would have to choose.

What about Dimension Door? Does the familiar get his own Dimension Door spell and can he carry others with him?

I don't think so. But if the familiar was in the Wizards backpack or some sort of pouch, I would say it could come along for the ride.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Actually, when it comes to spells...

Share Spells: At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit.

If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself.

A master and his familiar can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast).

There are two different options here:

1. Any time a wizard casts a spell on himself, regardless of what that spell is, he can elect to have his familiar also benefit from it. The familiar will continue to benefit from it so long as the familiar remains within 5' of its master.

2. Any spell that could normally only be cast on the wizard (range of Personal, target You), may instead be cast on the familiar. In such a case, the familiar need not remain within 5' of its master to benefit from the spell.

So, Expeditious Retreat. Range: Personal, Target: You. The wizard may cast this spell on himself and allow his familiar to share it - in which case the familiar must remain within 5' or the spell ceases to affect the familiar, or the wizard may cast the spell on his familiar, in which case the familiar can travel as it wishes.

As regards Dimension Door...

Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures

By the RAW, I'd say it's iffy, but possible.

I'd rule that, in such a case, your familiar counts as another possible object of touching (all of the spell recipients must be in physical contact with the caster, or in physical contact with someone who is, etc.), and does not count against the creatures transported limit, but that you are still limited to one additional medium or smaller creature per three caster levels.

So, your familiar could stand next to you (5' away), the halfling could touch you, the dwarf could touch the familiar, and you'd all travel - assuming you were at least a 6th-level caster.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I have a player with a 16th level wizard who has polymorphed his familiar into a stone giant...

Is that possible? Would it be permanent?

Yes, it's possible. Polymorph no longer has a size limit (the only size limit is that the form can't be smaller than Fine.) Using Polymorph, it cannot be permanent. using Polymorph Any Object, it doesn't look like it'd be permanent either, though you'd need to tell us what kind of familiar it is to be sure.

Secondly, I've read the rules on sharing spells. If the master and the familiar are within 5' of each other, they share the spells that wizard has cast, correct?

They share spells that the wizard has cast on himself.

What about spells that have some type of movement (Fly, Expeditious Retreat)? Does a familiar move at the exact same time as his master (currently I don't have a problem with that) so that they can stay within 5' of each other, or does a familiar need to be run by the DM under his own initiative?

Both of those spells can affect the familiar if the wizard so desires (they're both spells the wizard casts on himself). I've always run the familiar on the wizard's initiative, and would allow it to remain within 5' to keep the spell.

What about a spell like Phantom Steed? Do both master and familiar get their own steed?

No. Phantom Steed is not cast on the wizard. When cast, it creates a magical horse. Only one horse.

What about Dimension Door? Does the familiar get his own Dimension Door spell and can he carry others with him?

Share Spells does not give the familiar his own casting of a spell. It allows the familiar to share the same casting of the spell that affects the master. If the master uses Dimension Door, the familiar can share the spell and be transported along with his master. He doesn't gain another casting of the spell for himself, which he can use to be transported somewhere else independently.

 

[RigaMortus]

2. Any spell that could normally only be cast on the wizard (range of Personal, target You), may instead be cast on the familiar. In such a case, the familiar need not remain within 5' of its master to benefit from the spell.

So, Expeditious Retreat. Range: Personal, Target: You. The wizard may cast this spell on himself and allow his familiar to share it - in which case the familiar must remain within 5' or the spell ceases to affect the familiar, or the wizard may cast the spell on his familiar, in which case the familiar can travel as it wishes.

Isn't that contradictory? If the spell has a Target: You (like Expeditious Retreat) then the Wizard has to choose to either let it affect him OR his familiar, not both.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Isn't that contradictory? If the spell has a Target: You (like Expeditious Retreat) then the Wizard has to choose to either let it affect him OR his familiar, not both.

No.

It all depends on who the carrier of the spell is.

If the carrier of the spell is the wizard (i.e., he casts Exped. Ret. on himself), he can let it affect his familiar as well. In this case, the familiar must remain within 5' of the wizard at all times, or the spell stops affecting the familiar.

Alternatively, if the spell is cast on the familiar (i.e., the wizard casts Exped. Ret. on Fluffy the Hoptoad), the familiar *only* gains the benefits of the spell. The familiar is free to move as close to or as far from the wizard as time allows.

In the first case, the wizard is the carrier of the spell. In the second, the familiar is.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Alternatively, if the spell is cast on the familiar (i.e., the wizard casts Exped. Ret. on Fluffy the Hoptoad)...

Wow! In 3E, Fluffy would have a speed of 10.

In 3.5, he shoots up to 35!

(It looks like 3.5 Expeditious Retreat is absolutely necessary to make an Anthropomorphic Toad a viable character...)

-Hyp.

 

[Aluvial]

No.

It all depends on who the carrier of the spell is.

If the carrier of the spell is the wizard (i.e., he casts Exped. Ret. on himself), he can let it affect his familiar as well. In this case, the familiar must remain within 5' of the wizard at all times, or the spell stops affecting the familiar.

Alternatively, if the spell is cast on the familiar (i.e., the wizard casts Exped. Ret. on Fluffy the Hoptoad), the familiar *only* gains the benefits of the spell. The familiar is free to move as close to or as far from the wizard as time allows.

In the first case, the wizard is the carrier of the spell. In the second, the familiar is.

Ok, so essentially spells with that descriptor can go one way OR the other, but not both.

I get it; I'm sending my player to this thread to review it.

Aluvial

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Ok, so essentially spells with that descriptor can go one way OR the other, but not both.

Yes, except that, as Patryn noted, if you cast it on the wizard, it can affect the familiar if the wizard chooses and the familiar remains within 5'.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Ok, so essentially spells with that descriptor can go one way OR the other, but not both.

Look at it as a flowchart:

1.  Cast the Spell
2.  Pick the Target: Wizard or Familiar
3.  If Wizard
    A.  Do you want to share the effect with your familiar?
         I.  If yes:
             a.  Wizard affected by spell
             b.  Familiar affected by spell so long as it remains within 5'
         II. If no:
             a.  Wizard affected by spell
4.  If Familiar
    A.  Familiar affected by spell