D&D 5E Familiars, what for?

[James Gasik]

It basically comes down to, a PC getting to use their personal abilities to sneak about, vs. being replaced by a spell effect. I can see the logic, but again, if we don't want familiars to be scouts, or to provide advantage...there doesn't seem to be a lot of point to their existence.

 

[iserith]

The thing is that the familiar is a NPC. So the DM can do whatever he wants there, especially since for example the stealth check (if any, the DM can take into account passive stealth if he wants), vs. a passive perception, etc. Even if the DM is playing things fairly, there does not need to be anything visible from the player's side.

And as you point out, if fairness was the point, the DM also had at its disposal all means to explain why it was fair, maybe after the game. Instead of that, there was a massive perception of unfairness, and an overall sentiment from the players that it was the case of "I have a a kobold ambush prepared, there is no way a stupid familiar is going to spoil this".

So are we now defending the DM who did this to you or pointing out how the adjudication of the situation was in some way unfair? You seemed to have a negative reaction to it happening. What's going on here?

And I'm all for meaningful choices too, but once more the problem is not there, it's rather in perceiving a desire from the DM to exploit every single mistake in particular in the familiar area. Why so much hate ?

That perception is just wrong, where I'm concerned. Enemies will exploit mistakes in some cases. Leave your familiar exposed in combat and they're a valid target. Send them into a dangerous area to scout, expect that they may get killed. Make decisions and prepare accordingly. That's just playing the game.

Can we assume that the player is not stupid here and has his familiar hide when it can behind cover or out of reach ? But if suddenly the adversaries starts pulling ranger weapons or a spell just to get the familiar, it's another story.

I try not to assume what players have their characters do. It's on them to be reasonably specific about their positioning. (A map and minis helps with this.) What weapons a monster may have at their disposal will also be telegraphed when I describe the environment. That's part of setting the scene in my view.

But what happens if it does not really make sense ? For example, yes, the familiar might give one advantage or disadvantage to one attack, but is that really the major threat to the adversary ? Would he waste a valuable attack on the familiar for this, or even ready an action when he's got many better things to do ? That's the problem with the "kill on sight", for me, it's not only way too strong a statement, it also smacks of DM's hate for familiars, which is something that I think a lot of us have encountered before.

Anything can be made to make sense in the context of a game based on make-believe. Putting the PCs' resources in jeopardy isn't necessarily about hate. It's just part of the difficulty of the challenge that must be overcome and a means to introduce tension. And as evidenced by at least one poster upthread, some people would rather an attack go against their familiar! And in particular contexts, that may indeed be the best move.

 

[iserith]

I have a question about the complaint that familiars take up too much spotlight when they're relied upon for investigation: how is this any different from a rogue regularly stealthing ahead to investigate without the rest of the party? Obviously there are circumstances in which a familiar that blends into the setting has better chances of going undetected than a humanoid, but by the same token, a PC generally has better stats than a familiar anyway. Additionally, a PC can do things like have an interaction with NPCs (such as get caught and try to lie their way out of the situation).

In my current campaign, we have a shadow monk and ranger who do most of the stealthing ahead, so my pact of the chain familiar is more of a messenger who can transmit messages between the two party groups. If anything, the fact that my warlock is often standing away from the front line with her familiar acting as her eyes and ears means that she sometimes gets sidelined as action plays out too quickly for her to do much about it.

The chief issue as it relates to spotlight is one player effectively has two "PCs." So spotlight time ends up getting spent on both, whether that be a familiar's turn in combat or time spent having them scout while other players sit idle. (This can also be true of "pets" in general or hirelings/henchman, summons, etc.) Plus if you do have a character in the party who enjoys scouting, the familiar may overshadow them in some ways (particularly in the area of mobility, senses, or ability to be overlooked). That's more about niche protection, but it can also become an issue for spotlight hogging.

The DM (and the players) just need to be mindful of this to make sure that it doesn't get out of hand and that everyone feels they're getting reasonably equitable screen time while getting a useful advantage out of their investment in the familiar.

 

[ECMO3]

A few years back, I remember some people griping online that it was "cheap" to let a Familiar take the Help action.

Then, on another forum I frequent, a day or two ago, I started seeing arguments about how Familiars are not only not good at scouting, but should probably be killed more often than not if someone insists on making them scout.

I rarely take Familiars on my casters because they are notoriously fragile (though I have made use of Improved Familiar in Pathfinder). In 3.5, you took one for a passive benefit and then hid it in a pouch or something.

But in 5e, I'm a little confused. If there's pushback for having Familiars take actions, what the point of them even is. What should they be doing?

And are the complainers just being jerks?

I don't usually let my familiars help, they die to quickly for that and it is not that great a buff. But they are great to have around for extending your vision, especially if you get swallowed or something and you can take an action to look through your familiar's eyes and misty step out of that stomach.

 

[BookTenTiger]

If you want to make the death of a familiar more impactful, you could House Rule it that leftover damage goes to the Wizard.

 

[Bluebell]

The chief issue as it relates to spotlight is one player effectively has two "PCs." So spotlight time ends up getting spent on both, whether that be a familiar's turn in combat or time spent having them scout while other players sit idle. (This can also be true of "pets" in general or hirelings/henchman, summons, etc.) Plus if you do have a character in the party who enjoys scouting, the familiar may overshadow them in some ways (particularly in the area of mobility, senses, or ability to be overlooked). That's more about niche protection, but it can also become an issue for spotlight hogging.

The DM (and the players) just need to be mindful of this to make sure that it doesn't get out of hand and that everyone feels they're getting reasonably equitable screen time while getting a useful advantage out of their investment in the familiar.

I guess your last point is exactly why I don't see this as such a huge issue -- being mindful of other players and not taking up all the screen time is everyone's job. In the case of my current campaign, for example, knowing another player was going for a stealth-based character (shadow monk) is exactly why I dial it back on using my familiar for exploration and find other creative utility for it instead. I was actually worried that I wouldn't have enough for my familiar to do without the job that everyone says is the main role of familiars, but being able to transmit messages, carry potions, enter areas that are otherwise inaccessible, steal small items, etc. keeps me plenty busy without treading on any toes.

And while I agree that any kind of "pet" situation can result in one player effectively getting two PCs, a familiar really isn't a full PC at all. When my PC is looking through my familiar's eyes, the familiar is now the PC. It's just an extension of my PC.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

"In 3.5, you took one for a passive benefit and then hid it in a pouch or something." Sure, if you were bad at 3.5. But if you weren't, you traded your familiar for the Abrupt Jaunt immediate magic option cause you were a Conjuration specialist wizard.

 

[Oofta]

...
* Help action seriously makes no sense. What is some tiny cat going to do against an ogre that will consistently and without a fail grant its allies an advantage, whilst a barbarian repeatedly whacking the ogre with a great axe doesn't do that? How is a cat meowing going to be more distracting than taking a big axe in the gut?

Who wouldn't be distracted by this?

 

[iserith]

I guess your last point is exactly why I don't see this as such a huge issue -- being mindful of other players and not taking up all the screen time is everyone's job. In the case of my current campaign, for example, knowing another player was going for a stealth-based character (shadow monk) is exactly why I dial it back on using my familiar for exploration and find other creative utility for it instead. I was actually worried that I wouldn't have enough for my familiar to do without the job that everyone says is the main role of familiars, but being able to transmit messages, carry potions, enter areas that are otherwise inaccessible, steal small items, etc. keeps me plenty busy without treading on any toes.

And while I agree that any kind of "pet" situation can result in one player effectively getting two PCs, a familiar really isn't a full PC at all. When my PC is looking through my familiar's eyes, the familiar is now the PC. It's just an extension of my PC.

Sure, my point it is "a" problem, just not one with a very difficult solution. Except for some people, apparently.

 

[Joshy]

I have tried a few different versions of Find Familiar, just to see how it would do.
Reduce max range in could travel 50ft or 100ft helped it not take up the scout role completely.
Familiar can't travel past 30ft in high magic density areas or maybe even can't exist.
Make it a class feature so that if the familiar dies you either have to use a hit die as part of a short rest to heal it or use a long rest.
Let the familiar cast any cantrip not just attack range.
Familiars grants a variety of boons so the options other than owl are reasonable choices.

I don't mind the original but I like the class feature and the familiars grant boons version.