D&D 5E FAMOUS LAST WORDS: "It wouldn't be here if we weren't supposed to fight it."

[Zardnaar]

You guys ever hear of Gygaxian Naturalism? Hit the link for the full story, but here's what's got me curious: Do you ever put overpowered monsters in the party's path? For example, is it ever possible for a party of level 4 dudes to encounter an adult red dragon? And if so, how do you impress upon your PCs that fighting might not be the answer?

(Comic for illustrative purposes.)

This is fine, I think Rage of Demons had the PCs encounter Demogorgon at level 6.

 

[Lanefan]

It's one thing to go against a dragon or another gigantic monster (size is the simplest indication of power ), but especially when the players are not expert in D&D lore, it's quite reasonable for them to think a human foe without magic powers would be a normal combat challenge. Especially a criminal since most times IRL a criminal 's powers lie in deception, social manipulation and networking skills rather than physical prowess. Mafia bosses are usually old guys who couldn't throw a punch.

Yes of course a human NPC could be 20th level, but how can the players tell if the DM doesn't provide clues or opportunity to gather some lore on such adversaries?

Easy.

When the underlings of the henchpeople of the minor guild functionaries beat the pants off the party it's probably wise not to aim at any higher targets within the organization.

Not yet, anyway.

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On a broader scale - I find the whole notion of "it wouldn't be here if we weren't supposed to fight it" rather sad on many levels.

"It wouldn't be here if we weren't supposed to encounter it" is better - still not great, but better - in that encounters can (and sometimes should) take many forms other than violence: diplomacy, stealth-around, or outright retreat are but three possible options.

Lan-"if D&D must be compared to an electronic game, consider this: it's a 'rogue-like', where the only real question is how far you'll get before you die"-efan

 

[schnee]

Yeah cause glowing magical horns SHOUT anti-magic field.

If all other magic is shut down, magic items glow, and a thing that doesn't usually glow is glowing...

 

[S'mon]

Of course PCs can encounter monsters too powerful for them. This is usually because they have actively sought out that monster or are otherwise doing something very risky like Delving Too Deep in the megadungeon. In the wilderness giant super-monsters tend to be well signposted and easy to avoid.

IMC 2 4th level player characters & some allied NPCs decided to attack Princess Fiona Cormarrin, Grey Mage of Neo-Nerath, and her retinue of Veterans & a Knight. They knew Princes of Nerath are a big deal IMC. They got kerbstomped pretty bad, losing 3 of 4, the PC Barbarian escaping. If they had waited until 5th level they might have had a chance; when they faced her again at 6th or 7th they were victorious.

 

[S'mon]

Even running linear APs, the PCs can run into stuff too powerful for them. Running Hook Mountain Massacre in 5e, it soon became clear that the Kreeg ogres were too tough to defeat force-on-force (there was a disastrous 'Klendathu Drop' type attack on Fort Rannick that nearly turned into a TPK). So the ca 10th level PCs took to guerilla warfare, using their stealth skills & magic to hit and run, whittling the ogres down over game-months with repeated ambushes, until finally able to overrun the Hook Mountain stronghold (though not before the Stone Giants' caravan had collected their haul of Kreeg-forged weapons for the Wars to Come...)

 

[green_destiny]

For me when I DM, its important that we emphasis to the PCs:

1. Although they are the heroes, but the (D&D) world does not entirely revolve around them. The DM is a referee, story teller and will not 'always' tailor fit the difficulty for them.

- if in the story the bubbling green potion on the table is poison, and they just drank it without checking it, I'm not converting that to a potion of healing.

2. Combat is part of the game but its not the only way to win the game - most of the time roleplaying and out of the box thinking can be more fun and is rewarded.

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One time I introduced HOTDQ to a group, when the blue dragon appeared, the newbies jumped out to face the dragon - they thought it was their common video RPG. That a boss battle on the start of an adventure is just for dramatic purposes and cannot kill them or they will be saved eventually by a strong NPC.

While the more experienced players cowered into hiding and game me a finger.
They thought I was being a cruel DM and cannot believe that a dragon appeared on the first day of adventure. Fun times.

 

[Dorian_Grey]

But what is the context? With so many gamers patronizing about PCs being "special", having stats quite higher than average people, being heroes already at level 1, why should you not expect them to think they are actually SUPPOSED to go against something like a criminal guild? That's pretty much a heros' job! I don't think they deserve to be called stupid.

It's one thing to go against a dragon or another gigantic monster (size is the simplest indication of power ), but especially when the players are not expert in D&D lore, it's quite reasonable for them to think a human foe without magic powers would be a normal combat challenge. Especially a criminal since most times IRL a criminal 's powers lie in deception, social manipulation and networking skills rather than physical prowess. Mafia bosses are usually old guys who couldn't throw a punch.

Yes of course a human NPC could be 20th level, but how can the players tell if the DM doesn't provide clues or opportunity to gather some lore on such adversaries?

In general I usually provide a ton of clues. In this case, they had already had a tussle with a few thugs and walked away badly bruised. In yet another case of idiotic behavior, they had been asked by a merchant to watch an empty warehouse. If someone showed up to rob the place, they were asked to observe and take notes, follow but not engage. The merchant was trying to smoke out a mole and didn't trust the people who worked for him.

The PCs decided to engage, and got smacked hard for doing so.

This was after asking for something more "socially oriented." Anyway, they barely survive the thug encounter, and decide that the best course of action is to find out what the merchant knows and then figure out where the Guild is. Knowing that a few thugs could cause some pain, they then decide that the best case scenario was to charge straight into the guild's front door. Yeah stupid is as stupid does.

Edit: The PCs were first level. The ask by the players was for me to do an urban encounters game. Light on armor and weapons. The fighter was using a rapier/dagger combo and leather armor and he was their front line. They - the players - specifically said they wanted more "opposed skill checks" vs combat in the game. The VERY first game in this campaign, they are gathered by the merchant who is looking for "skilled gentlemen and ladies who can help investigate a situation" - not fight. Not kill. Investigate. Skill for that and everything. I made it clear I'd give XP for "encounter resolution" and resolution would be defined as moving past the encounter to whatever is next - not killing everything.

In the case of the warehouse, the resolution for the encounter would be to make a few perception checks and pick up on the clues the thugs had on them. Then figure out a plan to follow them. Heck I would even allow a little combat with the mole (who was the merchant's quartermaster). Let the fighter get in some fancy sword work against the treacherous scum.

They then decided to turn everything into a combat encounter. Not my problem.

 

[Lanefan]

They then decided to turn everything into a combat encounter. Not my problem.

Clearly your players enjoy rolling up characters more than playing them.

 

[KarinsDad]

2. Combat is part of the game but its not the only way to win the game - most of the time roleplaying and out of the box thinking can be more fun and is rewarded.

Only for some people. There are a lot of people who enjoy combat more than roleplaying.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

You guys ever hear of Gygaxian Naturalism? Hit the link for the full story, but here's what's got me curious: Do you ever put overpowered monsters in the party's path? For example, is it ever possible for a party of level 4 dudes to encounter an adult red dragon? And if so, how do you impress upon your PCs that fighting might not be the answer?

(Comic for illustrative purposes.)

Oh, absolutely, yes.

I try to signal monster toughness with large size, or corpses of other monsters in the vicinity, or by outright giving the monster's stats to the players. (Or at least, giving them a copy of the characters' best guess at the monster's stats, based on the result of their various hidden Nature/Arcana/Medicine check results. It's especially fun to give different stats to each PC if they don't know who actually succeeded on their knowledge check. Are vampires really as tough as Dinkum says they are?) Also, if it's an intelligent monster, the monster's demeanor is an important clue. If it acts non-threatened by the PCs--if it is totally unconcerned about the possibility of them winning initiative--that's an important clue too.