Fantasy Arms Race, Round Two

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I too am curious.

Just returned from Heart of Darkness style Trip to a little sister's Volleyball Tournament.

When I made my suggestions for market centers I had in mind the sort of temples and pyramids favored by the Mayans or people of Angkor Wat, Khmer?, so Ziggurats of some sort seem to be a common theme. Makes particular sense given the Cressians original astronomy based magic.

RangerWickett mentioned huge and impractical walls. I think that's a great idea for their capital city. Such things are a fairly common feature of people who rule through mobile armies, Bulgars and Persians and such. Herodotus describes Babylon as having impossibly huge walls.

I would like to suggest that a portion of the walls be heaped earth and the top be living wood. Some sort of special highly decorative tree that functions as a sign of Cressian imperial power.

I think the Cressians are clever and adaptive enough to avoid lots of Jongan revolts, their society never seemed to great anyway, but I do think that some portion of their culture will be integrated into the Cressian culture in a big way.

As for the gods:

I would like to suggest that they do exist, but that they are really much more concerned with their own interests and the worshippers they have a relationship with than each other. Possibly with the exception of a few pantheons. This would allow for war with divine support but without much divine intervention. Proper prayer would be a 'technology' that people would have to develop. Thus the Cressians might be better at divine magic than their neighbors not because they have more faith necessarily, but because they are superior masters of religious ritual.

Even without the other nations, there is still a lot to do with the Cressians. I don't think I've ever seen a write up for a large druid supported army formation.

Given their tradition of Guerrilla and mobile warfare and strong 'officer' corp, I would like to make the basic suggestion that the Cressians are likely to fight in waves rather than a battle line. The main formation would be organized into three or more battles and a reserve. The first battle would engage the enemy initially, the second battle would engage to relieve the first, and the third would engage to attack any resulting weaknesses in the enemies disrupted formations.

The technique is very similar to the Swiss and Theban orders of battle. I could also easily see the Cressians fighting battles very similar to the German tactics in the Teutonoberg Forest. Using the terrain and large numbers of light troops to disrupt and surround enemy formations while flying units of elite troops attack and withdraw from weak points in the enemy line until elements of the enemy can be isolated and eliminated. That's only good for the defensive, however.

I also think they are likely to use skirmish lines and illusion to screen their own troop movements with a big emphasis on information warfare.

 

[s/LaSH]

Well, no Ranger pending, what say we to coming up with the hypothetical scenario ourselves? Maybe just here, and maybe to be overruled by the Ranger later, but it can't hurt.

Factors that Ranger determined:

Cresia is now ~400 miles across. Jonga is assimilated into the Cresian Empire. There are three other nations, north, east and south (roughly) of Cresia (the sea is to the west). These nations can field tens of thousands of soldiers in times of war.

Factors that need determining:

What are these countries? What are their motivations, basic histories, and plans for the future? More to the point, when this is decided, when and why does the war start?

Thoughts, ladies and gentlemen?

 

[Zaruthustran]

More to the point, when this is decided, when and why does the war start?

Well, a war could come from without (invasion) or from within (revolt). Or it could be initiated by the Cresians.

Options for invasion:

1) Horde. Either humanoids, undead, monsters, barbarians, or some other mindless mass that couldn't be bargained with. I say bargain because the Cresians would be rich in food and population, the two major currencies of the ancient world.

2) Aggressive neighbor. The Cresians have wealth, magic, good aggriculture, and other nations might want to take this wealth away.

3) Xenophobic neighbor. The strong Cresians threaten a neighbor's way of life, so the neighbor launches a pre-emptive strike. Or perhaps the gods of Cresia offend the neighbor, and the neighbor orders a crusade. This last idea could be the popular excuse for a war that is actually about resources (see the real crusades for example).

Options for revolt:

4) Peace brings prosperity, prosperity brings wealth, wealth brings social classes, and social classes brings class friction. Civil war of the haves vs. war of the have nots.

5) Peace brings prosperity, prosperity brings wealth, and wealth brings greed. Internal war between guilds/Houses/nobles.

6) Peace brings prosperity, prosperity brings wealth, and wealth brings crime. Secret war between criminals and cops.

7) Peace brings prosperity, prosperity allows leisure time, leisure time allows philosophy, philosophy brings new ideas, new ideas bring conflict. Internal philosophical war, perhaps between humanists and deists. Or simple governmental revolt (king overthrows theocracy).

Options for war of aggression:

8) Peace brings prosperity, prosperity brings population boom, and population boom causes overcrowding. What to do with all these people? We need more room! Let's take it from our neighbors!

9) Taking their prosperity as a sign of their divine right to rule, the Cresians decide to impose their benevolence on others. Holy war.

10) A Jongan exploratory vessel stumbles upon a new land mass. They run into another people/culture, and one of their number (a prince) is killed. History repeats itself as a retaliatory invasion is launched...

11) A Jongan exploratory vessel stumbles upon a new land mass. It brings back fabulous wealth. War comes as Cresia and the other nations rush to colonize and exploit this new land.

12) A Jongan exploratory vessel stumbles upon a new land mass. It brings back fabulous wealth. War comes as Cresia and the other nations rush to colonize and exploit this new land. But the land is not unoccupied...

-z

 

[GladiusNP]

I think that as the Cresians expand beyong the Delta, they are definitely going to run into people who have entirely different approaches to warfare, which the former tactics of the Cresians can't counter well.
1. Chariots. If they move into any kind of flat terrain, they chould probably encounter at least horse drawn chariots. Though the Cresians probably haven't developed them, due to the Delta's somewhat wetter environment, it makes sense for someone further inland. These should really give Cresians a hard time. Chariots are mobile, provide a lot of firepower w/ Javelin throwers, etc., and are easily able to evade the infantry. Mages who ride these into battle would be fearsome. If the land has much less shelter in terms of forest or rough terrain, the Cresians are really going to have a difficult time. A kingdom with a chariot-based army, however, can't invade Cresia, assuming a rather marshy delta broken up by lots of rivers. Maybe this one could be neutral at the start of the next round. The good thing about a battle with these guys would be the evolution it forces the Cresians to undergo, as with the Jongans developing the fog-based magics of the Cresians. As for the magic side of the chariot army, maybe abjuration? The Jongans seemed to be heavy hitters, maybe a buffing sort of approach could work, which would really be a cleric-based magic society, with a minority of abjurer specialists.
2. More advanced formations - here I'm thinking the Roman Empire. Really disciplined, very organised. Cresians just crash on them, not breaking the line. Tactics here would be interesting. Cresians aren't able to break the line using most of their magic - fogs not going to do it, and if they are organized, summoned creatures are just another way to try and break the line. Discipline stops Skirmishers being effectice. Beastmen would be very effective, so the counter for them would have to be developed. A really unique sort of approach to magic, not seen so far would be cool. All necromancy? Psionic soldiers of the Emerald Dragon? Depends how people want to go, I suppose, though I'm unsure whether or not psionics will play a part.
3. Efficient missile weapons - when will crossbws be developed? I have to confess, I don't actually know when they were made in history, though I think they are pretty far beyond the scope of this thread. Slings and javelins would seem to be the only effective missile weapons so far, and bows are still used for hunting. Also, what level of magic are we talking, 5, 6? Couldn't be too high. A little more definition could be useful.
Anyway, hope to hear others thoughts on what sort of kingdoms we'll have. (P.S. When do we get iron?)

 

[Tonguez]

Presented Once more for your perusal

Some suggestions for other Nations

1. The Land of IronThe only culture with Iron, a well disciplined military structure and less reliance on magic. Probably the most advanced Military nation and have chariots, heavy infantry and seige weapons. Oh and give them Giants too (ie Large size creatures so we test the effects of reach and rockthrowing and stuff...). This could well be the Aggressive 'horde' nation

2. The Magiocracy where powerful Scorcerers hold power (no Wizards as yet)and Arcane magics - from Illusion to Fireballs- are freely used in combat. No doubt this will be the Xenophobic nation

3. The island Nation settled by the rebel Jongans/Cressians. The Druids of this Nation did turn to Biomancy and have created Minotaur, Centaur and Merfolk soldiers. They have the best ships and use other magics that involve enhancing or transforming creatures (This is to introduce Monster Scenarios in warfare)

4. The Ascetic Nation A nation with a deeply ingrained aestetic religion. Monks and Psionics*. This nation is initially neutral but might be swayed by Diplomacy (yay the rise of Politicians)
* Okay we need to vote on the Psionics thing as for me I think we should allow the Psionic Feats but NOT Psionic Powers. That gives us all the wonder of Wuxia but not the muddying of the world caused by Psionics-dissent

PS whatever happened to the Jongan Bards?

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Well, I got no opinions on competitors cept that one of em should definitely be barbarous.

I do have an idea for why the Cressians would got to war, however.

The Cressians seem to me to not be much into the whole conquest thing since their culture is very deep, difficult to export, and takes time to develop. I do see them being pretty paranoid about aggressors, however.

Let's say that one of the cultures bordering the Cressians consists of a lot of independent city states who fight a great deal among themselves but do have a coherent sense of identity. Ala the Greek city states.

The Cressians develop trade relationships with some of the closer and more prosperous city states along their common border. There are problems with occasional raids or armies from the city states trying to cross into or through Cressian claimed land. Overall things go well.

Many of the other neighboring states are deeply embroiled in the politics of these city states and one of the more distant states sends in troops to protect their allies. This polarizes the city states into a massive conflict as all the states ally to take on the few states who have claimed foriegn protection or work to take advantage of foriegn protection themselves.

As the closest stable nation, the Cressians have to develop a policy and response to this fighting. They are extremely reluctant to intervene on so short a time table and into such a complicated situation, but they also very much hate the idea of another power invading the City States.

Let's call the City State Culture the Kleesians.

 

[Ciaran]

I like it, Dr. Strangemonkey, I like it! An excellent scenario. Only one problem: ‘Kleesians’? They sound like a nation of either

A) 20th century Swiss avant-garde painters, or
B) disposable tissues for blowing one’s nose.

How about something Greek, mythic and apropos, like “Lernaeans” or “Stymphalians”?

- Eric

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I like it, Dr. Strangemonkey, I like it! An excellent scenario. Only one problem: ‘Kleesians’? They sound like a nation of either

A) 20th century Swiss avant-garde painters, or
B) disposable tissues for blowing one’s nose.

How about something Greek, mythic and apropos, like “Lernaeans” or “Stymphalians”?

- Eric

Baaaa!!!

You would disdain my carefully chosen associations with the fractious swiss and the soft gooey kleenex?

Stymphalians works for me! Shall we say the closest allied city state of the Cressians are the Altheeans?

And who wants to work on the other foriegn power? They have to come from somewhere, and if they are arriving the Stymphalian zone by sea then naval conflict will play a critical role in this battle.

They need to have some sort of mobile professional army and an ethic of intervention at the very least. Maybe some sort of militaristic traders like the Minoans or Phoenecians or Vikings?

 

[Morgenstern]

I'm thinking three way - I like the loosely allied city-states, with a strong martial culture, and constant fighting to keep in shape. Modified spartants will be fun. Probably from rough country so that natural terrain has divided them into smal enclaves. All good.

For the third side of the triange, vast grasslands spotted with rocky hills, and an ENORMOUS nomad nation now united under a kahn-type figure. It's cressians and psuedo-Greeks force to band together against the truely huge invading armies of the khan. Give them all the typical mongol goodies: expert cavalry, knowledge of the value of scouting and reconnaisance, tightly coordinated unit movemments by planning/training and drum command, superior bows, and a seriously hardy and highly motivated worrior class. Then add the magical aspests - a light scattering of sorcery focused on long distance scrying and communication (combat suport rather than direct damage), and an elite cadre of gryphon riders (with magic briddles that prevent outside charming). Worship a gryphon god of the sky, with a modest scattering of clerics with weather and air focus. No wizards whatsoever, no druids, and no equivalent of the bard. Waves of these start rolling into the area, and in the fighting the Cressians and the 'greeks' discover each other's existance as a result of tales from captured 'mongols' who are rotated through both fronts. Some individual fighting, and eventual contact (sail up to meet the 'greeks'?).

A three way offers lots of political goodies (are all the khan's warlords loyal, or can they be bought off?) as two very diffent groups face a common threat.

 

[ajanders]

Three way battle royale

One concern I have is that the thread was initially designed to make at least vaguely informed speculation about what happened when Vancian magic got added to armed conflict.
Adding two other cultures simultaneously adds elements of diplomacy and politics to our otherwise straightforward military theory.
Having said that, I'll suggest a martial Sparta-style culture with iron weapons and advanced mundane technology.
I think the Cresians will make mincemeat out of any animal-riding culture fairly quickly.
aja