Fantasy Arms Race, Round Two

[Robbert Raets]

Okay, taking tech into account I still think Stempans are very likely to have an archaic shield wall/turtle style formation, like the Greek Phalanxes or the Roman Legions.

On the pages I found it said that the Greek city-states neglected archers and cavalry because they'd mostly be fighting an enemy Phalanx from one of the other city-states.

But expanding on the Roman set-up (mind you, this knowledge is coming more from Asterix comics rather than accurate historical knowledge ), I'd say a Kentyron of one-hundred swordsmen would be the base unit of the Stempans. It is sub-diveded in ten-man Dekyrons, and supported by a 15-25 archery unit, a small group of officers and a few horsemen or chariots (did the Stempans have those or not?). Supplies are delivered by 3-5 ox-carts guarded by a single Dekyron.

How's that?

 

[GladiusNP]

Just jumping back to the zombie thing - the Zombies were failed experiments of the Auselen to create giant humanoids. The Cressians may not really understand that these are reanimated corpses, since they never saw the original living creatures. What with their lack of Clerics and Wizards, necromancy isn't an area of magic that I can see them investing a lot of study in.

Which brings us to an interesting point. What happens when they do find out what these zombies are? The Stempa probably have a pretty good idea of necromantic magic - some of their mid-level clerics can cast animate dead, or are at least high enough level to research it. The Cressians probably see this as a corruption of the Field-father's balance of nature, further distancing them from the Auselen.

That's it for now.

 

[dglass]

Just jumping back to the zombie thing - the Zombies were failed experiments of the Auselen to create giant humanoids. The Cressians may not really understand that these are reanimated corpses, since they never saw the original living creatures. What with their lack of Clerics and Wizards, necromancy isn't an area of magic that I can see them investing a lot of study in.

Which brings us to an interesting point. What happens when they do find out what these zombies are? The Stempa probably have a pretty good idea of necromantic magic - some of their mid-level clerics can cast animate dead, or are at least high enough level to research it. The Cressians probably see this as a corruption of the Field-father's balance of nature, further distancing them from the Auselen.

That's it for now.

I would have to agree. With the Auselen playing both sides it seems the Stempa will decide the outcome of the war. Whoever they ally with with gain the upper hand. I personally would like to see the Cressians win. They are kind of the 'pet' civilization of this thread.

 

[dglass]

I would love to see anyone's idea on how a large Stempan force would be organized. And any sort of specific ideas on how Stempan society works. Like where do the ogres come from and how do they work in society normally.

Question: do they have to be Ogres? I've never really thought of Ogres (even the mage variety) as creatures that would ever fit into any sort of civilization.

I have always had a soft spot for the goblinoid races. I think they get a bad reputation. Not all of them are stupid just uneducated. True, Bugbears are not as strong as Ogres but they could use levers and pulleys like the greeks did. I think the goblinoids could coexist with humans in Stempa. The Goblins and Bugbears would make up the lower social strata. Doing the jobs no one else wants to. Goblins have an average intelligence but I think the lower charisma, strength and small size would make them second-class. Hobgoblins have average intelligence, wisdom, and charisma with a slightly higher strength, dexterity, and constitution compared to humans. They would be citizens too in Stempa. Perhaps the Hobgoblins would do the 'hard' work. Tilling fields, construction, hunting game, that sort of thing. Meanwhile the weaker but more creative Humans would do the cooking, weaving, pottery, stuff like that. Leaders could come from anywhere.

I think in prehistory (that is to say Round One) the tribes of humans and goblinoids lived near each other. They probably fought a little. Perhaps there was a disease, or drought, or both which caused a strain communities. A forward looking leader then figured out that if they worked togather they would have a better chance and pitched it to the other tribe. The two peoples survived the hard times and just kept going.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I would have to agree. With the Auselen playing both sides it seems the Stempa will decide the outcome of the war. Whoever they ally with with gain the upper hand. I personally would like to see the Cressians win. They are kind of the 'pet' civilization of this thread.

Actually, and this may be jumping ahead a bit, I would like to see the Cressians and the Ta'jinn settle their differences and go up against the Auselen and some of the Stempan city states for the next round.

The only thing the Cressians and the Ta'jinn have against each other at the moment is that they only understand enough about each other to be discouraged about talks and to see that the other is a threat.

This when it seems to me that the Auselens are the most threatening force. Both the Cressians and the Ta'jinn are essentially non-aggressive expansionists. The Ta'jinn are happy to participate in conflict, but can't really use much that isn't plains without having to deal with a large conquered population that they can't ever adapt into their culture. The Cressians are happy to gain more areas for the living cities, but they have to expand slowly to let them grow and conquest is unpleasant because it takes them forever to indoctrinate anyone and they have to rework their whole social structure in order to do so.

Both cultures are, however, highly paranoid as a result of fighting really evil magical cultures who threatened not just their soveriegnty but their entire value system. Both cultures see internal stability as paramount and dependent on preventing exterior aggression. Thus, while they have their own reasons for entering into the Stempan conflict in the first place, they have reacted in fundamentally similar ways throughout the conflict itself. Only their cultural signs, not their policies or codes, clash.

The Auselen, on the other hand, hold refugees from the cultures both Cressia and the Khanate abhor, are magically invested in ways that both cultures detest, and have a society of high competition and flexibility that is built on fostering conflict and draining resources. The Auselen are just better at hiding all of this.

Another source of conflict is the immediate goals of the war. The change in the conflict will occur when the Cressians and the Ta'jinn realize that they are fighting each other to deter and remove a threat to their socities that only has potency because they are so ignorant of each other. It is true that they are in competition, but no more so than they have been with the Stempan states against whom neither of the powers have ever contemplated a war of annihilation since they represent at most a minor threat to each culture's internal stability. The Auselen, on the other hand, are a culture who's only goal as an ally or enemy is to destabilize both cultures and they are willing to use methods that neither side would readily contemplate.

Think of it:

The Auselen have given Zombies to a culture that has never seen them before but reveres life and is deeply distrustful of heavily destructive magic.

The Auselen have given Elementals to a culture that has never seen them before but deeply distrusts the idea of summoning extra-planar entities and the idea of high level arcane magic generally. They have exhibited double dealing and Machiavellian tactics with a culture that deeply prizes honesty, personal heroism, and law.

The Auselen goal is to increase instability at no cost to themselves and open up opportunities to compromise treaties that hold them in check. Materially they hope to gain control of some Stempan cities and ground that has been left open by the diminishment of both Cressia and the Khanate.

The Auselen seek to prolong the war. When the Cressians and Ta'jinn send large forces through the no-man's land they will encounter obscenely powerful Auselen forces that will make sure that the two original forces waste each others resources while they become more deeply entrenched.


The turn will come when the Stempans get their act together and threaten to enter the war as an independent or game ending component of the conflict.

As the stability of the conflict threatens to unravel the Auselen will inadvertantly turn their hand by attempting to right the conflict through powerful magics used against the Stempa. Both of the original cultures will discover a new threat and a three way war will break out until interaction with the now truly frightened Stempans reveals the nature of the two empires to each other and attention turns to the Auselen.

The end of the conflict would be a dirty sort of stalemate and relationships between the three continental powers could be better or worse, but Cressia and the Khanate agree that they have bigger fish to fry than each other and the Stempans agree that anything is better than having other people's wars fought on your own soil. The Auselens, on the other hand, feel that all their interests are best spend in attempting to unbalance power in their favor

 

[Tonguez]

The end of the conflict would be a dirty sort of stalemate and relationships between the three continental powers could be better or worse, but Cressia and the Khanate agree that they have bigger fish to fry than each other and the Stempans agree that anything is better than having other people's wars fought on your own soil. The Auselens, on the other hand, feel that all their interests are best spend in attempting to unbalance power in their favor

Yeah it does seem that we have got to a stalemate both in terms of the Ta'jinn/Cressia conflict and our own ability to develop the conflict meaningfully without going into a title mega-beast proliferation meltdown "okay I'll see your Collosal Zombi and Raise you an Earth Elemental"

The Cressians match the mobility of the Ta'Jinn and are both more manouverable over uneven terrain and less vunerable to damage (due to Deltane DR and ability to use cover). However the Ta'Jinn have the advantage of speed and greater military experience allowing them to hold out against the Cressian attacks

Both sides have invested huge amounts of resource and have suffered significant casualties. The Stempa I can see withdrawing and actually staying out of the campaign as they see it as a pointless conflict. Of course mecenary bands are brought in mainly Heavy Infantry (no Chariots as Stempa is too rugged and mountanous) which prove ineffective when faced with the mobility of both Cressia and the Ta'Jinn, but who are useful in withstanding seiges.

Finally the High Priestess of the Dog Mother sends ambassadors to the Ta'Jinn Khan suing for peace. She has discovered the true nature of the Zombi's and is appalled that her people should stoop to such vileness. Moreover the Scribes Sept has discovered the Auselen treachery.

Okay - still time for others to accelerate the conflict between Ta'Jinn ad Cressia if they so wish (afterall an assainated Ambassador is often a good catylyst for genocide!)

but personally I'd like to move on (this round being declared a tie)....

 

[s/LaSH]

What's to say we can't fast-forward a little bit? Think of a tactic, think of a counter-tactic - or a logical progression, at any rate. That's what we're about here, and don't really need to delve much deeper. The culture builds itself, as we've discovered.

In the interests of this:

The Ta'jinn consolidate their control of Stempa. The elementals are their supreme weapon in this territory, able to cross rough terrain and wreak grievous havoc upon the fortresses that the Thelians value so much. To make a point, they lay siege to and destroy an entire city-state's capitol on the Thelian side, one with many Cresian units in its garrison. (Someone more familiar with Stempan geopolitical structure decide this one, please?)

Fortresses are suddenly no longer valid tactics.

The Auselen stage a mock battle over an unimportant town near the front lines, between 'rival' captains. The battle is an impasse, and very few casualties are taken by either side. Both Cresia and the Ta'jinn are convinced that the Auselen are still just fragmented raiders (they have no idea of the existance of the High Lords of Ausel, and less of the Accords of Helg).

It looks like Stempa is the battleground for now, and the Auselen are quite willing to foster this situation - after all, they might be able to start selling defensive creatures and technology to the Stempans too, but they have to keep the war going in Stempa or they lose that market. And frankly, the Cresians seem to be too well-defended, and the Ta'jinn too distant for counter-attacks (so far, at least).

But before the messengers can reach their captains, telling them to sell defences to Stempa, the survivors of the destroyed city have spread to other states and begun to spread an anti-war sentiment - for the very good reason that they're now caught in the middle of a very big conflict. This isn't going anywhere soon, but in a few years of eternal war, I see the Stempans getting sick of this and calling it quits with their own internal war, then going to scout out Ausel itself - and possibly blowing this thing wide open.

EDIT: Tonguez got there first. Who says the war has to go on immediately? A generational war, ignited every so often by petty intrigues or vengeance plots, or even the Auselen manipulating someone, could last a hundred years and prove fertile ground for many a tactic. Or not, but does anyone else feel we've finished Round 3? 'Cause I'm itching to throw a monkey in the works for Round 4...

 

[Robbert Raets]

So should someone start a new thread? Can we expect major technological, magical or cultural developments in the time skipped?

 

[Morgenstern]

First note- I really like the idea of incorperating several types of humanoids inot the Stempa civilization- goblin along with the ogres, and possibly hobgoblins. I can see a general belief that if it's humanoid, and can manage to remeber it's own name, then it can partake in Stempa. Still, citizenship, the right to be heard in council, and full protection under the law should be limted. Any race can (and does) achieve it, but the percentage may be weighted slightly in the favor of humans. Service in the military for a certain period might be one road to citizenship... Strengthening the moral of the armies. Success in the priesthood might be another.

In any event, I would look towards the following conditions comming out of this round.

Stempa ends up serving as the battleground for a while due to Ausel meddling. While not destroyed, they are greviously setback, and will provide little more than moral support and perhaps a few elite (and expensive) city-sponsored mercenary units, whose contract fees go towards resotoring that particular city. The Ausel make damn sure to arrange for the costal powers to be particularly ravaged (covering their own backs).

Tired of war with little gain, and recieving the offers of the High Priestess, the Ta'Jinn khan accepts the offer of peace. The Ta'jinn return to their own affairs. Shortly before the outset of the next round (see below) they are invaded from an entirely different direction by a cabal of harpies and their controled minions. The Ta'jinn will largely sit the next round out.

The Cressians gain a growing understanding of the commonality between themselves and the Ta'jinn, despite their rocky start. Suspicious of how far back the now obvious Ausel manipulation might run, they sue for peace, and then turn their attention to te Ausel after a suitable amount of time to recover.

I propose to call this round a draw we should have seen comming- the forces were too evenly matched, and nothing in their make-up really contributed to a sufficiently deep an abiding hatred for one another, the cornerstone of protracted battle.

The Cressians have ships. They've neglected them as a tool for war for many years, but haven't forgotten.

Lets look forward to a new round without such a neat balance of forces. Cressia is bigger, but wishes to attack over sea. Ausel has much better magic (1-2 level higher), flexibility, and several dragons hidden behind the throne. Both sides really hate each other. And a variety of Stempa mercenaries are hanging around waiting to be hired because they really need the money to rebuild their home cities.

Sound worth exploring in a new thread?

 

[Robbert Raets]

Do you want to keep the discussion of the Stempan Military/Mercenary set-up for the new thread or make it up here/now?