Fantasy Concepts: An OGL Fantasy Saga Project

[Warbringer]

Looking forward to this project. Couple of comments:

1) BAB to damage. This maintains both the mathematical relationship between damage and iterative attacks and maintains the flavor that fighters get better at fighting than any other class.

Also, I've played around with letting spellcasters trade an increase in BAB for an extra spellcasting feat and with damage tied to bab it seems a fair trade.

Both of these were implemented in my TrueDnD (True 20/DnD hybrid) and worked well.

2) Talents: I am really not a big fan of talents. I like True20 were a feat is granted every level. What I added was the notion of organizations, were class abilities (read talents) are added into the available feat list. The difference is that if a hero doesn't want to take a talent he can elect to take a feat, an option that doesn't exist with talent trees.

3) True20 grants +1 to any ability every 4 levels. As True20 uses the bonus is the ability, this is mathematically equivalent to +2 abillity points in the 3-18 DnD abilities. It is a simple extrapolition to allow these points to be spent on two abilities.

4) Still interested to see how you handle the DnD magic systems (arcane, divine, psi, ki, spell like abilities....etc). With the change in the save progression (assuming you use hero level) spell DCs need a serios rework, either reverting to caster level (ala 1e/2e) or going to a 20 level spell system. I've gone the latter way. Instead of 1,2,3.... the base levels are 1,3,5... If a spell is a strong spell (such as Magic Missile, Fireball...) it adds +1 to its spell level, becoming a 2nd level and 6th level spell respectfully.

 

[Flynn]

4) Still interested to see how you handle the DnD magic systems (arcane, divine, psi, ki, spell like abilities....etc). With the change in the save progression (assuming you use hero level) spell DCs need a serios rework, either reverting to caster level (ala 1e/2e) or going to a 20 level spell system. I've gone the latter way. Instead of 1,2,3.... the base levels are 1,3,5... If a spell is a strong spell (such as Magic Missile, Fireball...) it adds +1 to its spell level, becoming a 2nd level and 6th level spell respectfully.

I am entertaining the thought that the Defense scores should increase at one-half your character level instead of your full character level. Here are my reasons:

1) Currently in D20 Fantasy, the best saving throw progression is: 2 + one-half character level. If I stick with that progression rate, I don't have to modify DCs for attacks, spells, etc., because that's the manner in which they increased before. Also, spells and items that effect saving throws would still have the same effect on saves in Fantasy Concepts as they would have in D&D, so that's one more thing that doesn't need to be touched, making it easier to use other D20 games without conversion (or at least removes yet another step in the conversion process).

2) In Unearthed Arcana, there's a variant for class defense bonuses. While the progression follows a standard (some base + one-third character level), the lowest value on any of the charts is +2 at first level, and the highest value is +12. That's the same range as the best saving throw progression mentioned above. If the tables were compressed into one progression, it would essentially be the same as good saves.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm

3) Since the system is already considered balanced in regards to both numbers, there would be little need to make adjustments in the area of saves or BAB, and would open back up the half-level BAB progression to allow for poor, medium and good fighting prowess distinction.

4) This progression rate matches the skill progression rate, so it would be easier to tie the casting skill check to the defense checks in a one-for-one advancement.

5) It provides yet another subtle difference for legal purposes, and one that is much more defensible based on existing OGC and mathematical progressions. An optional rule could allow GMs to use alternate progression rates here, such as the full character level progression.

I'm still thinking on it, but the more I look at the numbers, the more logical this appears to be. What do you guys think?

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I have to say, I've been running some numbers and have been drawing the same conclusions. If you want a truly streamlined system then every key variable needs to increase at the same rate to maintain consistency across the levels. Granted, magic items will make things easier at high levels, but they can also make things harder, so again, the benchmark equal increase in two opposing things is needed.

I think that having each defense score increase by 1 per 2 levels is a very nice solution. It means you remove the need to create complex reasons for characters to wear armour (although armour may still need toning down a bit) - base attack bonuses will be the only thing that increase at a higher rate than reflex defense, and so armour will be a must for front line fighters. It does also open up the poor base attack bonus to wizards - they'll be terrible at hitting a fighter of the same level due to armour, but that's why they have touch attacks. Touch attacks won't automatically hit either, it will basically come down to the wizard's strength or dexterity against the other characters' dexterity and base reflex defense modifier which will be +4 at most I guess for a super advanced class.

I might run some in-depth spreadsheets comparing these things, would that be useful to you Flynn?

 

[Flynn]

I might run some in-depth spreadsheets comparing these things, would that be useful to you Flynn?

Please do! If you could post it here for review by our peers, that would be helpful, too.

Thanks,
Flynn

 

[Dalamar]

Well, if the defense progressions are dropped to 1/2 character level, there is going to be something that gets skewed from how it was in Saga: skill check based attacks/checks against Defenses.
In Saga, skill based abilities start strong as there is a good chance for them to succeed, but they taper out towards the end (they end up at about the same point with defenses if the character has skill focus).
Also, lower level characters are going to have a slightly easier time with opponents of higher level due to the opponents' defenses not rising as fast.

Now, whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is probably going to depend on everybody's point of view.

 

[Flynn]

Well, if the defense progressions are dropped to 1/2 character level, there is going to be something that gets skewed from how it was in Saga: skill check based attacks/checks against Defenses.
In Saga, skill based abilities start strong as there is a good chance for them to succeed, but they taper out towards the end (they end up at about the same point with defenses if the character has skill focus).
Also, lower level characters are going to have a slightly easier time with opponents of higher level due to the opponents' defenses not rising as fast.

Now, whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is probably going to depend on everybody's point of view.

Actually, they should more closely follow the experience of D&D's saving against spell effects. The DC of a spell save is effectively, for your highest level spell, 10 + half character level (since highest spell level advances every two levels) + casting mod, against 12 + half character level + stat mod (for good saves).

In Saga, the skills effectively get a +5 on the above for being trained, but otherwise the numbers look similar. It's that +5 that will throw a bugbear in the woodpile (+10 with skill focus).

Yeah, I'm not entirely at the point where it's a done deal, because there are a few minor bugs that still have to be ironed out.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Baron Opal]

I am entertaining the thought that the Defense scores should increase at one-half your character level instead of your full character level.

But, of course.

In Iron Heroes, save progression is level + attribute mod. Since there are no magic items to boost saves, that works out. Since we will have magic items in Fantasy Concepts it makes sense to have the defense scores progress at half that level.

Which, actually, makes me uncomfortable with adding full BAB to damage. I figured that the half level bonus to damage was to mitigate the loss of magic weapon damage. You can gain iterative attacks, after a fashion, through feats in SWSE. There isn't any lack of damage due to iterative attack loss, you can have them if you spend the feats and you get more feats to spend.

 

[drothgery]

Which, actually, makes me uncomfortable with adding full BAB to damage. I figured that the half level bonus to damage was to mitigate the loss of magic weapon damage. You can gain iterative attacks, after a fashion, through feats in SWSE. There isn't any lack of damage due to iterative attack loss, you can have them if you spend the feats and you get more feats to spend.

According to the designers, the 1/2 level bonus damage is to make up for iterative attacks going away (note that there were iterative attacks in previous versions of Star Wars d20, but there weren't any magic weapons -- well, not other than a Force Adept's attuned weapon anyway).

While you can get multiple attacks in Saga (through the double attack chain or the dual weapon mastery chain or both), they're really an anti-mook strategy more than anything useful against equal-level opponents; if your enemy doesn't just stand there and take it (and unless terrain or being surrounded forces the issue, or he's also a multi-attack specialist, he won't), it's pretty hard to get multiple attacks off. And it takes a lot of feat and talent expenditure to get the to-hit penalties for multiple attacks low enough that you can use them effectively against something close to your level even if it obliges you by not moving. So the default mode -- even for most warrior types -- is going to be a single attack.

 

[Flynn]

Which, actually, makes me uncomfortable with adding full BAB to damage. I figured that the half level bonus to damage was to mitigate the loss of magic weapon damage. You can gain iterative attacks, after a fashion, through feats in SWSE. There isn't any lack of damage due to iterative attack loss, you can have them if you spend the feats and you get more feats to spend.

You can't measure the loss in iterative attacks by replacing them with feats. As a wise man once told me, you should measure such things from the basic level of the game. If you say it's balanced because of the feats, it's only balanced if someone takes the feats. If someone has to take the feats to regain a lost balance, then they shouldn't be required to take them. Instead, these "required feats" should be integrated into the system as class features. But then again, once you do that, you've basically reintroduced iterative attacks. Balancing a lost feature by requiring you to spend character resources isn't truely a balance.

Personally, I'm all for not adding those iterative attack feats into the system anyway, and letting you spend an Action Point to get the extra attack, as True 20 does, or Unearthed Arcana if you play in a game with Heroic Surge and emulate that feat for the round. (i.e. This comes from my experience with Grim Tales and one of Wulf's extra rules that allows for feat emulation. GT has Heroic Surge, as does D20 Modern. True 20 just cuts out the feat as the middle man and goes to a straight equation of one Action Point to one additional standard action per round.)

But I'm open to adding the feats in. I just don't think they should be mandatory.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Please do! If you could post it here for review by our peers, that would be helpful, too.

Thanks,
Flynn

Well, here's a spreadsheet. I tried to assume modest magical items, which is difficult, given it's far easier to increase your AC in D&D than it is your attack bonus from what I've noticed. Still, it gives a nice indication of numbers. I'd say half defense was the way to go. I'd also completely modify the existing armour chart - it really is useless, you only ever want one of four of the many types of armour (padded, mithril chain shirt, breastplate, full plate). Don't get me started on mithril breastplate and full plate.. . It's nice that the touch attacks work out quite easy for the wizard, but not so easy it's a given.

Going briefly back to the balance issue. Clearly raising some things by half level and some things by level when they're fundamental to every class is a bit messy. The offset granted by skills is the only difficult bit. Given a defense is at most going to have +2+2+stat and a skill will have +5+stat, there's a slight imbalance, but how many skills will face off defenses directly? Having BAB rise faster than defenses is again, fine, provided that the world's most armoured individual manages to accrue no more than +15 other non-stat bonuses (so the world's best fighter still has a good 25% to hit) it should be fine. Towards this, I'd be tempted to tone down magical bonuses to AC, perhaps prevent enhancement to shield and armour stacking? Or even things out, allow for more +to hit magic items (since AC gets rings of protection, amulets of natural armour, ioun stones..).