Fantasy economics and other planes... unworkable?

Why wouldn't mining the elemental plane of earth be effective, well its all in how you look at the planes.

First the elemental plane of earth is mostly dirt and rock, with little precious ore in it.

Now just by third edition there are hazards that need to be considered even if you do find ore. Earth Elementals and Xorns attacking those invading their homes (and even if you can kill them, your miners likely can't.) Dao slavers (Motp) seeing an oppurtinity to aquire a few slaves for their mines, and other nasty natives of the plane.

Then theres other consideration, where are you going to take all the dirt and rock you need to dig through to find ore veins. The plane is almost entirely solid so you would need to take it out through the portal, attracting attention of your enemys. (Say your a villian, and your spys told about massive piles of dirt near your enemies abode and there was no apperanent digging. You would investigate wouldn't you.)

Now if that isn't enougth to make it to costly, I haven't even began to dive into all the fun stuff in the planescape guide to the inner planes. If you go add a few features from that book, which was the most detailed guide to the inner planes in the history of D&D theirs other problems to worry about, like passages just slowely close over the course of 3 days, as the plane heals itself, so you have to do a lot of matincence to keep up a mine.

Another feature from the guide to the inner planes, sometimes creatures to powerful to kill are locked in the plane by a prison of solid stone. But what if during the mining you just happened to break the prison enought for the creature to escape.

One last disasterous feature that could go wrong is the plane of earth experinces earthquakes sometimes, caving in passages and inflicting damage.

That should be enougth to stop all but the most powerful organization from mining. If that isn't I still have more troublesplanescape made for travellers and miners on the plane of earth.
 

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Hand of Evil said:
Time equals money. Cost of work per hour. Inflation, what use to cost one GP now cost 5 GP. Cost of living would also increase, unless you have vast tracks of poor.
Inflation means that the same amount of money represents less real wealth. For instance, if we suddenly double the amount of gold in circulation, prices will adjust so that goods and services cost twice as many gold pieces as before -- but not twice as many silver pieces, or twice as many chickens, or twice as many days' labor. Gold is worth less after a giant influx of more gold, making everything more expensive if you're paying in gold.

Addendum: The converse is also true. Anything you sell gets you twice as much gold. Your silver, your chickens, your labor -- they're all worth twice as much gold as before. They're not twice as valuable; they're worth twice as much gold -- because gold is worth half as much as before.
 
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BiggusGeekus said:
However in most games this is pretty much ignored. My "favorite" moment in game economics took place in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil when the St. Cuthbert people were charging us 100gp/spell level for curing spells even though it was established we were the big save-the-world guys. I told the DM that in my spare time I was going to kick back and sell my cleric spells for 10gp/spell level. I got a nasty look for suggesting that.
Unions don't like no competition. You don't want no broken kneecap, do yah?
 
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Why wouldn't a portal to the elemental plane, used as a gold mine, throw off the economy?

Yield.

According to the USGS, the United States has averaged 330+ metric tonnes of pure gold mined, per year, for the last 7 years (the years for which data was available). This is almost entirely from Alaska. Other regions in the world - Australia, I believe, and some others - produce as much or more. I believe the total for the whole world is on the order of thousands of tonnes/year.

That's a lot of brand-new gold hitting the market every year. And yet, it still sells for $300+ per ounce! The discovery of a new high-yield mine typically causes only a little fluctuation in that price.

Flooding the market with gold would require a mind-bogglingly huge amount of gold, hitting the market all at once (as in the Aztec example mentioned earlier).




Even if the market weren't flooded, driving down prices, making a profit off of it is even more difficult. Why?

Although our mining technology is certainly advanced beyond what the average dnd campaign can manage, they have some advantages we don't - dwarves, for one, and the availability of magic. So it's probably fair to assume that our technology and their magic actually wash out; our mines probably don't yield more than would a dwarven mine, with spellcaster support.

Further, assume, for a second, that the elemental plane of earth has roughly the same composition and mineral distribution as the crust of the Prime Material plane (an assumption which may be faulty in a number of ways, but which is good enough for this comparison). If this is true, then a mining operation on the EP of Earth would be, by definition, very similar to a mining operation on the PM.

It would still require the same amount of labor, the same R&D costs (or higher, due to the foreign terrain), and the same amount of refining and processing and minting and casting into gold bars.

It also involves higher costs for security - pissed-off xorns and Elder earth elementals are much more difficult to defend against than your average human brigands, particularly on their home turf - and the cost for setting up and maintaining a portal to another plane can't be small.

Which means your yield will be similar, and your costs higher.



Therefore, while the gold is in fact available, a cost/benefit analysis would probably show that it isn't profitable.

This isn't unlikely; it happens in our mines all the time. There is a mine in the California foothills that has been shut down for many years, because, although the vein wasn't tapped out, and they know there is another vein nearby, the profit margin for mining that gold would be unacceptably small.

Instead, they have made it into a state park celebrating California's mining heritage. One of the guides there said that the price of gold would have to jump to $1000/oz for them to restart the mine - and that is in today's economy, not as a result of inflation which would also drive their costs up.


jtb
 


Kaodi said:
There is no such thing as economics in D&D. Only arbitrary costs. I'm sorry, it's a simple truth, hehehe ;). A casual glance through the equipment section of the PHB coupled with the entries for Craft and Profession shows it plainly.
I know this has been discussed before. Can anyone summarize the flaws (or point me to a summary of the flaws) in the rules' economic assumptions?
 

mmadsen said:
I know this has been discussed before. Can anyone summarize the flaws (or point me to a summary of the flaws) in the rules' economic assumptions?

Sure.

The problem is that there are no economic assumptions. Weapon prices are based on weapon damage. All prices are based on how valuable a good or service is to an adventurer who is about to go into a dungeon. The 100gp/spell level example I gave earlier is a good example. I mean, come on. A cleric living in a small town is going to charage a commoner a hundred gold pieces for cure light wounds? That's crazy. But it makes perfect sense for a game.

Then you get into the DMG and how many chickens are in a metropolis at any given moment....
 

Two things to add...

First as people have said before, it's not as simple as going to another plane grabbing the gold and running back out. Denizens of that plane may think you have robbed them and come back looking for their property. Slavers, and other nasties exist while you are obtaining the gold, etc etc. So there is some risk there.

Here's the second thing. How many prime material planes and alternate prime material planes are there? And someone mentioned devils. Include all those cabals and you have quite a lengthly list of people who are interested in said gold. And some of it have been at it for thousands of years before whenever your present campaign is. They're not going to sit idle. They all have the same motivations you have. So I would say that all the reasonably easy gold, no matter where it is, has already been taken. Any remaining gold in any plane is either undiscovered (and fairly hard to find), already claimed by some denizen of that plane (though that person may be inattentive to it at times), or so hard to get that it's not worth the effort to get it.

Now if you had created some "plane of gold" where everything on the plane is gold... I guess I would have to think of something else there. To my knowledge that plane doesn't exist, but I'm certainly not anywhere close to an authority on the cosmology of D&D.
 

jerichothebard said:
Why wouldn't a portal to the elemental plane, used as a gold mine, throw off the economy?

Yield.

According to the USGS, the United States has averaged 330+ metric tonnes of pure gold mined, per year, for the last 7 years (the years for which data was available). This is almost entirely from Alaska. Other regions in the world - Australia, I believe, and some others - produce as much or more. I believe the total for the whole world is on the order of thousands of tonnes/year.
Tangent
I remember reading a book called The History of Gold or just Gold. One tidbit which did stand out was something like, we have mined more gold in the past hundred years then the entire period before that.
 


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