Favorite actual/wished for fantasy character that wouldn't work well with D&D rules

But to recap here is my list of hard PC concepts that I don't think you can do well in D&D, just to see how you do with it:

1) Speedster (by which I mean, large numbers of actions per turn, not merely 'runs fast')
2) Stops and/or Controls Time
3) Time Traveller
4) Single entity in large number of independent bodies (differs from the comparitively easy concept of a swarm in that the individuals need not stay in one place)
5) Metamorphs, and too a much less extent mental-morphs.
6) Any character based off a storybook character whose powers always scale such that they are just barely able to solve the problem, but never so much that the problem is solved easily. (Although IMO, Vancian spellcasting does a pretty decent job with this trope, as it provides for vast power and 'inexplicable' moments of weakness, but I know lots of players that disagree with this assessment.)
7) Precognition (including psuedo-science variates of this like Hari Seldon)
8) Characters with limitations imposed on them solely by story (cursed characters in fairy tales or ghost stories, for example, but also including characters that appear to have power that they consistantly refrain from using for reasons of their own, although again IMO, Vancian spellcasting does as good a job with this as anything. Gandalf is a 6th level M-U sort of thing.)
9) Characters that are mechanically witty or humerous or creative in a satisfying way.

And looking back over my list, I find I wasn't able to accomplish what I set out to do. Most of those are not hard to do mechanically. The problem with those is the side effects and game artifacts of those mechanics are generally undesirable.

You are right that many of these are harder on the coherence of the story than they are mechanically. I think, though, that is a great point. Anything that addresses mechanical issues should try to give suggestions for resolving potential story issues as well.

And, actually the speedster and the time stop/slow guy can be thought of in the same mechanics, since the speedster is really just slowing his perception of time so that he can accomplish more in the same time period.

The main issue with precognition or time travel is PC unpredictability. It would be impossible (without severe railroading) to have the PCs go back in time to complete a task that the definite result is already determined, or foresee something happening that relies on them doing something in particular. This would be especially true if the PCs had time travel mojo and were under complete control of hopping back and forth.

So resolving the paradoxes of time travel/future sight would have to be decided. One way to look at it would be simply they see/visit the most likely future, or that when they travel to the past if they change things, the future then changes as well and the 'old' future simply ceases to exist (a la Terminator). Since this is D&D, it's also possible that if they do screw up "the way it's supposed to be", that the god(s) of Fate intervene to try and set things right again with odd coincidences and luck.

Mechanically witty or humorous or creative in a satisfying way... well 'satisfying' of course depends on the individual. But, how about this:

Snappy comeback
Prerequisite: Cha 13
You have a knack for cracking people up at the opportune time. Times per day equal to Cha bonus. During a conversation with an NPC or creature, you may choose to re-roll a failed diplomacy check by using --insert witty remark here--. You must take the result of the second roll. A natural 1 on the re-roll means the joke fell flat and the creature takes personal offense to it (their attitude worsens by 2 steps temporarily).

Of course, 'temporarily' would need to be defined.

edited to add "temporarily" :)
 
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1) Speedster (by which I mean, large numbers of actions per turn, not merely 'runs fast')
Planar Shepard. Swiftblade. Ruby Knight Vindicator. White Raven Tactics. Psionics abuse. Shall I go on?
2) Stops and/or Controls Time
How about Time Stop? Or it's Psionic variant, Temporal Acceleration?

3) Time Traveller
Teleport Through Time, 9th level spell.
4) Single entity in large number of independent bodies (differs from the comparitively easy concept of a swarm in that the individuals need not stay in one place)
Simulacrum?
5) Metamorphs, and too a much less extent mental-morphs.
Alter Self, Polymorph, Shapechange, Metamorphesis, Dragonform, Dread Form of the Eye Tyrant, Hellspawned Grace, Humanoid Shape, Wildshape...


7) Precognition (including psuedo-science variates of this like Hari Seldon)
Moment of Prescience, Foresight, Celerity, Contingency, Precognition, Greater Precognition, Defensive Precognition, Offensive Precognition, Offensive Prescience, Anticipatory Attack, Danger Sense...

9) Characters that are mechanically witty or humerous or creative in a satisfying way.
Wanderer's Diplomacy. Goad. Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Otto's Irresistible Dance. Glibness.

Hell, let's just say Bards and call it a day.
 
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Somebody mentioned "The best swordsman in the world" ... It reminded me of a character I am planning for 4th edition which I call "I never miss"
There are an interesting number of things I can employ towards that end. One to focus around is the the fighters "I never miss" maneuver called Reaping Strike (boost this out the barn). Combine with other moves that do something even when the roll is technically a miss... add in backgrounds and races to improve intimidate and you might get the best swordsman in the worlds cousin who never misses and for the most part virtually drives away enemies with reputation alone.
 

Probably the most common type I see in fiction that D&D cannot do is the guy who is equally as good with a blade as he is with magic.
Actually, this is simple to do in older editions of D&D. I played in many 1e games where there were 5 or more levels difference between PCs and the game handled the fragile character no more difficultly than it handled the high level character. With save or die as a prevalent force, level becomes immaterial frequently. So the real issue with this trope is getting everyone else on board that you want to play 4 levels higher than everyone else so that you are a higher level mage and fighter than the dedicated class players. In 1e, for example, an 9th level fighter and 9th level mage have similar xp and a multiclass 10/10 character have only around 2-3x the xp of the other two. (From memory, I could be way off but no farther off than 5x or 6x.)
The Lucky Man - A character that has practically no skills (useful ones, anyway), but always manages to get by on by sheer chance. Examples: Arthur Dent manages to escape the destruction of earth, learn to fly, and stop missles by pressing the right button despite his lack of skills, experience, or having any clue what he's doing. Teela Brown from Ringworld would be the epic version of this.
Arthur Dent is an epic level Commoner in 3.x.
 
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Planar Shepard. Swiftblade. Ruby Knight Vindicator. White Raven Tactics. Psionics abuse. Shall I go on?

By all means, but you are still missing the point. Let's say I want to play 'The Flash'. That's my character concept. The first thing you might think is, "Well, obviously, you can't play the flash as a low level character, but persumably at a sufficiently high level you can play 'The Flash' as a character". But that fails too. Do I need to point out why?

How about Time Stop? Or it's Psionic variant, Temporal Acceleration?

How about Time Stop at will? Let's say I want to play 'Hiro Nakamura'. This fails for the same reason 'The Flash' fails.

Teleport Through Time, 9th level spell

But reading the entry on 'Teleport Through Time' only proves my point. Mechanically, its easy to say, "Ok, now you are back in time." But this fails utterly on practical grounds, and the entry that you've been linking to only serves to suggest why this is true.

Simulacrum?

Ok, sure. Despite its high costs of entry, it's one of the most powerful and most often overlooked spells in the game. Leaving aside the point that it creates dominated NPCs rather than actually extending your physical form into new bodies (likely to reason PC's avoid it), lets imagine the situation where I create some sort of XP mill and start cranking out these creatures. At some point, this too fails, and for reasons that have nothing to do with mechanics.

Alter Self, Polymorph, Shapechange...

Mostly serves to prove my point.

Moment of Prescience, Foresight, Celerity, Contingency, Precognition, Greater Precognition, Defensive Precognition, Offensive Precognition, Offensive Prescience, Anticipatory Attack, Danger Sense...

And in a different way, mostly serves to prove my point. But I can make the point more simply by saying, "Divination", and leaving it at that.

Wanderer's Diplomacy. Goad. Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Otto's Irresistible Dance. Glibness.

This point is a bit more subtle than that, and I suspects its one that people are going to disagree on. Indeed, let's look at the Bard, because the Bard really highlights the problem. But let's say that you have a skill like, "Comedian", and I've min/maxed my comedian skill to the point that I can really 'slay 'em' with my jokes or at the least can emulate the effects of Tasha's Hideous Laughter.

Now, what did I say that was so funny? I mean sure, I can in a narrow way mechanically create the effects of being funny, but is this mechanic in and of itself satisfying?

To get the idea what I'm going at here, let's compare my 'Comedian' skill to a character that has min/maxed balance, or climb, or jump. I can define mechanical outcomes for balance, climb, or jump as well. However, the mechanical outcome in this case is pretty much exactly the same as the narration of the event. I make a climb skill check, and with a successful roll I can climb the wall of smooth ice by virtue of my extraordinary. How? Don't know, but at least for me it doesn't seem to matter. But in the case of a weaponized joke, it does seem to matter.

Now, you might think, "why should it?" Let's imagine the novelization of our role play. It's pretty easy and satisfying to narrate how Jack the Climber was able to climb like a spider up the glass wall. But, how satisfied with the narrative would you be if all the dialogue for Bob the Joker was simply, "Bob said something funny..." or "Bob snapped a witty remark in reply."? Wouldn't you want to know what Bob said?

Merely saying that Bob is so funny that he can provoke gales of uncontrollable laughter doesn't make the character witty.

Merely saying that Bob can invent things, doesn't make the character creative.

Or in other words, there is some limit to how much mechanics can add to a character what is not present in the characterization by the player. You can give mechanical support to a players characterization, but you can't create that characterization out of mechanics alone. It's easy to mechanically create the character who is 'the greatest swordsman in the world' and your average player be satisfied by the results, even when that player isn't (and especially when that player isn't a great swordsman). But a player who isn't witty who wants to play a character who is witty is likely to be disappointed regardless of the mechanical support we make available.

Interestingly, merely being 'attractive' or 'persuasive' is alot easier to do in a mechanically satisfying way, which is probably why you often see 'persuasive' skills, but almost never see a 'comedian' skill.
 


By all means, but you are still missing the point. Let's say I want to play 'The Flash'. That's my character concept. The first thing you might think is, "Well, obviously, you can't play the flash as a low level character, but persumably at a sufficiently high level you can play 'The Flash' as a character". But that fails too. Do I need to point out why?
Go ahead.


How about Time Stop at will? Let's say I want to play 'Hiro Nakamura'. This fails for the same reason 'The Flash' fails.
Persist Time Stop. Doable with an Incantatrix.

If you set up an infinite power point loop, you can get an infinite duration Temporal Acceleration.
But reading the entry on 'Teleport Through Time' only proves my point. Mechanically, its easy to say, "Ok, now you are back in time." But this fails utterly on practical grounds, and the entry that you've been linking to only serves to suggest why this is true.
How does it fail on practical grounds?

Ok, sure. Despite its high costs of entry, it's one of the most powerful and most often overlooked spells in the game. Leaving aside the point that it creates dominated NPCs rather than actually extending your physical form into new bodies (likely to reason PC's avoid it), lets imagine the situation where I create some sort of XP mill and start cranking out these creatures. At some point, this too fails, and for reasons that have nothing to do with mechanics.
So your response to an answer to your question about a mechanical issue is... to say that it fails for non mechanical reasons?

Talk about being hard to please.

Mostly serves to prove my point.
Which is?

And in a different way, mostly serves to prove my point. But I can make the point more simply by saying, "Divination", and leaving it at that.
Seriously, how does fulfilling your request prove that something can't be done?

This point is a bit more subtle than that, and I suspects its one that people are going to disagree on. Indeed, let's look at the Bard, because the Bard really highlights the problem. But let's say that you have a skill like, "Comedian", and I've min/maxed my comedian skill to the point that I can really 'slay 'em' with my jokes or at the least can emulate the effects of Tasha's Hideous Laughter.

Now, what did I say that was so funny? I mean sure, I can in a narrow way mechanically create the effects of being funny, but is this mechanic in and of itself satisfying?
I find it hilarious to hurt people with spells.

Now, you might think, "why should it?" Let's imagine the novelization of our role play. It's pretty easy and satisfying to narrate how Jack the Climber was able to climb like a spider up the glass wall. But, how satisfied with the narrative would you be if all the dialogue for Bob the Joker was simply, "Bob said something funny..." or "Bob snapped a witty remark in reply."? Wouldn't you want to know what Bob said?
I have a list of witty insults on my computer for exactly these sorts of occasions.

Also, are you seriously suggesting that DnD requires a means by which to generate jokes in order for you to roleplay your comedian to a satisfactory degree?

Please suggest a system that allows you to do play this kind of witty character in the way that you envision. I'm dying to hear how you plan on doing it.
 


Which again, proves my point. Since you seem to have failed to understand what it was, probably because you failed to actually read the post that you were responding to, my point is that there are concepts that are difficult to do in any game system even when you can mechanically provide a rule that allows it.

All the speedster, time stop, large numbers of bodies cases fail on the practical grounds that if a PC can take some arbitrarily large number of actions per turn, then the PC's turn takes an arbitrarily large amount of time to resolve while all the other PC's (or NPC's) wait an arbitrarily large amount of time for their turn. This is generally undesirable in a game, so as a result (as with the power of plot characters that the concepts are based on) they only work if the player arbitrarily limits his own power.

As I stated in my original post, the fact that they can be done is beside the point. Allowing them to be done immediately raises additional rules questions and problems.

The link you provided for 'official time travel' does more than hint at that:

"Special Note: The introduction of time travel into any campaign can be fraught with peril, so tread carefully. Players will wonder how much they can mess with the timeline, and you may run into instances of the grandfather paradox. Further, changes made very far back in time cannot really be worked out completely because of the chaotic aspect of events...."

This 'little' note at the end more or less confesses that though a mechanical rule allowing the action to be performed can be easily provided, no such simple mechanical rule allowing the DM to adjudicate the outcome of the action can be provided.

Likewise, the link you provided completely excludes time travel into the future for precisely the same reason that 'Divination' is so problimatic: no one at the table, not even the DM, necessarily ever has a clear idea what the future holds, and no one, not even the DM, has a strong method of ensuring any future outcome actually comes to pass. Again, your link proves my point much more strongly than it refutes it.

So your response to an answer to your question about a mechanical issue is... to say that it fails for non mechanical reasons?

You wouldn't have to ask this question if you'd been reading me so far. You clearly weren't paying attention to me because if you were, you wouldn't have waited 20 or 30 posts and 4 or 5 days to respond to me and then only after the person I was talking to responded. If you don't read me, and pull a snarky response that makes it clear you weren't reading, don't be surprised if I'm less than overwhelmed by your rebuttle.

Also, are you seriously suggesting that DnD requires a means by which to generate jokes in order for you to roleplay your comedian to a satisfactory degree?

Perhaps when you can't understand what I mean, you would be better off applying the Principle of charity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia to my argument rather than assuming that since you don't know what I mean I must mean the most ludicrous thing you can think of. If you don't think it is reasonable that I would be seriously suggesting that D&D requires the means to generate jokes in order to role play your comedian, then take a breath and try to imagine what I might actually be suggesting. It might turn out that the reasonable thing I could be saying much more closely matches what I actually said than the ludicrous thing you invented.

Please suggest a system that allows you to do play this kind of witty character in the way that you envision. I'm dying to hear how you plan on doing it.

Now I think you are beginning to inadvertantly understand.
 

Which again, proves my point. Since you seem to have failed to understand what it was, probably because you failed to actually read the post that you were responding to, my point is that there are concepts that are difficult to do in any game system even when you can mechanically provide a rule that allows it.
Hold on; it's not hard to be a Swiftblade. Several simple options for being a Speedster exist.

However, if you want to get specific and be the Flash, of course it's going to be hard. The Flash is a very powerful (and awesome) superhero.
All the speedster, time stop, large numbers of bodies cases fail on the practical grounds that if a PC can take some arbitrarily large number of actions per turn, then the PC's turn takes an arbitrarily large amount of time to resolve while all the other PC's (or NPC's) wait an arbitrarily large amount of time for their turn. This is generally undesirable in a game, so as a result (as with the power of plot characters that the concepts are based on) they only work if the player arbitrarily limits his own power.
Fitting in a way; the Flash and Superman regularly pull punches and tone down their speed so they don't cause disasters.
As I stated in my original post, the fact that they can be done is beside the point. Allowing them to be done immediately raises additional rules questions and problems.

The link you provided for 'official time travel' does more than hint at that:

"Special Note: The introduction of time travel into any campaign can be fraught with peril, so tread carefully. Players will wonder how much they can mess with the timeline, and you may run into instances of the grandfather paradox. Further, changes made very far back in time cannot really be worked out completely because of the chaotic aspect of events...."
Allowing PCs to do anything creatively is bound to create additional rules questions and problems. What if someone wants to cast Fireball over a lake and create a fog screen? Oh noes, additional rules questions and problems! How is a DM to survive?

Rules questions and problems comes with the game. Welcome to RPGs.
This 'little' note at the end more or less confesses that though a mechanical rule allowing the action to be performed can be easily provided, no such simple mechanical rule allowing the DM to adjudicate the outcome of the action can be provided.
I beg to differ; Rule Zero applies, does it not?
Likewise, the link you provided completely excludes time travel into the future for precisely the same reason that 'Divination' is so problimatic: no one at the table, not even the DM, necessarily ever has a clear idea what the future holds, and no one, not even the DM, has a strong method of ensuring any future outcome actually comes to pass.
Seriously, take a look at your books sometime and try to find references to "Rule Zero".
You wouldn't have to ask this question if you'd been reading me so far. You clearly weren't paying attention to me because if you were, you wouldn't have waited 20 or 30 posts and 4 or 5 days to respond to me and then only after the person I was talking to responded.
It's not all about you, you know.
If you don't read me, and pull a snarky response that makes it clear you weren't reading, don't be surprised if I'm less than overwhelmed by your rebuttle.

It's actually spelled rebuttal.
Perhaps when you can't understand what I mean, you would be better off applying the Principle of charity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia to my argument rather than assuming that since you don't know what I mean I must mean the most ludicrous thing you can think of.
I am unable to do so because I never learned the true meaning of Christmas.
If you don't think it is reasonable that I would be seriously suggesting that D&D requires the means to generate jokes in order to role play your comedian, then take a breath and try to imagine what I might actually be suggesting.
Perhaps you should enlighten me instead of spending several paragraphs and half an hour's worth of effort complaining about my ignorance.
 

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