Favorite actual/wished for fantasy character that wouldn't work well with D&D rules

Are people here argueing just to argue? Or do they really believe that D&D 3.0, 3.5, and 4.0 handles play of "everyman" type character adequately? as compared to say, Call of Chthulhu or Hollow Earth Expeditions?

Let me also clarify that we need to consider the game being used pretty much as it was written and designed. I could say "Use D&D rules, but only use level 1 NPC classes, never give experience, and never use monsters higher than CR2, and remove all magic items with a value higher than 2500 gp from the game.... but by that point you are no longer playing the game as it was designed... you've effectiely thrown out 80% of the PHB, 90% of the MM, and 60% of the DMG.

That depends on how you define "handles play" - and here I respectfully disagree on the validity of your argument.

If you adjust the rate at which magic items and experience points are given out, limit the classes, and end up using only 10% of the core books, yet your group is able to have a fun, satisfying game using the mechanics, did not the rules handle it well?

(Note that since I've never tried playing an 'everyman' I have no idea how any game handles it, including D&D)
 

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Simply playing wizards who do not memorize fireball on a daily basis is "no longer playing the game as it was designed".

Which is like saying that playing a game of Call of Cthulu which doesn't end with everyone insane or dead is "no longer playing the game as it was designed". You are conflating a particular sterotype of play with all the possible play available under the rules. It's perfectly possible to play a session or even a whole campaign of Chaosium Call of Cthullu with no mythos elements at all, or even with no supernatural elements at all. For example, I can imagine running non-supernatural horror elements under Chaosium CoC such as a game set in the trenches of WWI, or a game in which you Victorian era explorers of Africa, the Amazon, or Antarctica (read "you are modern big badass adventurers"). Neither game need have anything more than mundane horror in it.

I could also run a game of D&D set in the trenches of WWI or where you are 'real world' explorers of Africa, the Amazon, or Antartica which would be every bit as grim and gritty as the Chaosium Call of Cthullu game in the same setting. Granted, I'd have to port in house rules for horror/madness (from Ravenloft, a D&D setting) and firearms (from Ken's Grim and Gritty rules), and maybe add some additional non-standard class options like 'Explorer' and 'Scholar' (many options here) to provide mundane variaty, but it would be rules written for a D&D game being used in a non-traditional manner.

And here's the really important part. I don't know if anyone has ever ran CoC with no supernatural elements for any extended period, but I do know that people have ran D&D in highly non-traditional settings for extended periods. One of the coolest settings I've heard about at EnWorld was someone was running Ice Age/Stone Age D&D. You can't say to some running a game of D&D set in real world Rome that they aren't playing D&D just because there are no dragons and fireballs. It's a very non-traditional game of D&D, but its still recognizably D&D in its mechanics. And mechanics are what this thread is about. The fact that the fluff traditionally implies that the mechanics represent something else is irrevelent. The question is, can the mechanics handle being repurposed for some other non-traditional fluff like 'everyman struggling in heroic circumstances', and in my opinion they absolutely can. In fact, every campaign I've ever ran since the end of high school starts out for the first 6-10 sessions as exactly 'everyman struggling in extraordinary circumstances'.

My latest campaign began with an (apparently) 'mundane' tsunami. It featured alot of running, balance checks, jump checks, escape artist checks, diplomacy checks, intimidation checks, heal checks, swim checks, strength checks, and so forth by characters with either no or basically mundane skills for survival. How fast you could run was far more important than how well you swung a sword, and most of our nascent heroes ran at purely mundane 'everyman' speeds. It had no fireballs, no dragons, no dungeons, and the little combat it had was lethal - CR 2 killing machines versus 1st level characters with little or no armor and few weapons. Half the party was unconscious and bleeding at one point. Does that sound like 'big bad-ass heroes'? Are you telling me it wasn't D&D? Well what was it?
 

Nearly all of them, to directly answer the thread title. D&D's not wired that way, and never has been.*


* Except, perhaps, if you subscribe to the grand old tradition of house-ruling, which ever has been. . .

Or perhaps if you are concerned more with capturing the general concept of the fantasy character you are modeling your character after instead of the specific mechanics.

It also helps if you realize that not every concept can be achieved at 1st-level.
 

I have been wanting to build Sherlock Holmes (as recently played by Robert Downey Jr). I have not tried to build it yet, so I'm not yet sure where there would be issues... but it's an idea ;)

Holmes might be tricky in 4e but I had no trouble doing him in my home brew with my low magic mods. Watson was a bit harder though.

You can see the original post in my blog 5 Stone Games

or here

Holmes

L10 Half Elf Rogue

S 16
I 18
W 14
D 16
C 16
CH 14

Feats
1 Educated (All Knowledge Skills are class skills)
3 Improved Unarmed Strike
5 Improved Grapple
7 Improved Feint
9 Urban Tracking
Skill Focus (Perception)

Class Abilities
Sneak Attack (5d6)
Rogue Ability (Custom, +3 Bardic Lore) x5 Lore Roll +19!
Trap Sense +3
Uncanny Dodge
Evasion
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Advanced Talent (Skill Mastery) Perception + 6 others

Skill Points
standard

HP 83
AC 21
Action Points 10

Gear
MW Studded Leather Armor (under coat)
Deerstalker Hat
Pipe
Pipe Weed in Pouch
Stout Cudgel (light mace)
Dagger
Investigators Kit
Hand Crossbow
Bolts (of various materials, some may be magic )
Lens of Detection
Ring of Magic Detection (automatically tightens if magic sensed)
Occasional dusts, potions oils or the like​

Watson

Do to the peculiarities of the D20 system I had to boost his level a bit to make him a "better shot" then Holmes as the novels suggest

L10 Human Expert 4 Fighter 6

S 12
I 14
Wis 14
Dex 14
Con 12
Cha 12

Feats
H Alertness
1 PB Shot
3 Skill Focus Healing
5 Rapid Load
7 Hand Crossbow
9 Investigator
F1 Weapon Focus
F2 Precise Shot
F4 Weapon Specialist
F6 Repeating Crossbow (Heavy)

Special Abilities
Armor Training
Weapon Training (Crossbows)
Bravery +3 vs fear

Skill Points
Standard

HP 69
AC 19
Action Points 10

Gear
Leather Armor
Healers Kit with potions cure light, cure moderate, remove disease, neutralize poison
Investigators Kit
Hand Crossbow
18 Bolts 12 are +1 (6 holy cold iron 6 holy silver) 6 standard
Dagger
Short Sword or Cudgel​
If you use the right low magic house rules even "skill" oriented characters work fine in D&D.
 

That depends on how you define "handles play" - and here I respectfully disagree on the validity of your argument.

If you adjust the rate at which magic items and experience points are given out, limit the classes, and end up using only 10% of the core books, yet your group is able to have a fun, satisfying game using the mechanics, did not the rules handle it well?

If it is necessary to eliminate the majority of the rules in the books, and add your own rules... then no, the rules do not handle it well.... (since they insufficient in some places, and needed to be ignored in others).

I am not saying D&D is a bad game. I am just saying that it is not suited for playing "everyman" characters.
D&D is also not suited for playing baseball, although you could rip out a page from the PHB and crumple it up to use as a ball, rip out other pages for bases, and swing what's left as a bat.
 

If it is necessary to eliminate the majority of the rules in the books, and add your own rules... then no, the rules do not handle it well.... (since they insufficient in some places, and needed to be ignored in others).

Well, IMO there is a difference between "ignored" and "don't apply". Ignored would imply to me that the rule could apply to the situation but you choose not to apply it. It seems like the rules which would apply to an 'everyman' campaign are adequate, and the ones that don't apply don't interfere with it either.

Maybe I'm wrong because of lack of experience with the concept, but I don't really see what rules would need to be added or changed other than adjusting the rate at which xp is gained and the availability of magic... which are pretty standard adjustments in any campaign, although usually on a lesser scale.

The biggest adjustment would be in the focus of the campaign. It would definitely require a skilled DM and players with the right mindset... it would definitely be more story-based, perhaps more skill-based than fighting-based, but the mechanics themselves - the mechanics by which characters are built and conflicts are resolved - IMO would still be appropriate and useful.

(Clarification: by 'conflicts are resolved' I mean the die rolls themselves - what you roll when and what you add and vs. what)
 

D&D is also not suited for playing baseball...

Actually, it handles baseball fairly well. It's football, basketball, hockey, soccer ect. that require extensively massaging the rules, but you can do baseball fairly well because baseball can be approximated by turn based system.

Of course, I don't know a turn based game that adequately approximates a game like football or soccer.
 

If it is necessary to eliminate the majority of the rules in the books, and add your own rules... then no, the rules do not handle it well.... (since they insufficient in some places, and needed to be ignored in others).

Maybe its just the prespective that I have having played since 1e, but this doesn't seem like nearly as strong of an objection to me as it seems to be to you. In 1e, it was not at all unusual to buy a new module and find rules subsystems for dealing with particularly unusual encounters scattered throughout the text. Each month brought a new issue of Dragon magazine and new ideas on how to play. Everyone's campaign was modular and built from the rules sets they needed to capture the particular setting. To a greater or lesser extent this is true of every published setting for D&D. They all have unique rule subsystems, and often unique classes and unique spells and monsters.

Most D&D campaigns IME elimenate the majority of published materials, and most bring in a collection of house rules, third party material and semi-official sources (like Dragon). Perhaps there are tables out there which open up everything every printed for a system by WotC, but if that's the case its probably very early in an editions life cycle. And I scarcely prep an adventure that doesn't have something unique in it and which doesn't require me to invent some sort of rules subsystem to handle it. D&D handles a grim and gritty every man game every bit as well as it handles emulating Krynn, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Planescape or Ebberon and with no more rules modification and perhaps a good deal less. Yet, outside the context of this argument, I doubt anyone would bat an eye at the claim that Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Planescape and Ebberon are D&D.
 



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