D&D 1E Favorite Obscure Rules from TSR-era D&D

[Voadam]

Not necessarily. "Backstab" doesn't literally mean you have to stab it in the back; it just means you have to catch it off guard and hit it somewhere vital.

Last night my Thief backstruck a Frost Giant by hiding under a table then cutting through the back of its knee(s). Of course the Giant survived this then turned around and beat me to within an inch of death; but that's another story.

That is literally the 2e PH example of a backstab not working.

"Finally, the thief has to be able to reach a significant target area. To backstab a giant, the thief would have to be standing on a ledge or window balcony. Backstabbing him in the ankle just isn’t going to be as effective."

 

[Voadam]

That, and relative to most other classes Thieves level-bumped every time they sneezed; often putting them one or even two levels higher than most of the party.

Put another way, a 4th-level Thief is not equivalent to a 4th-level anything else, but a 5th might be and a 6th certainly is.

In 2e a 6th level thief has at least 20,000 xp, and gets 6d6 HD ~21hp, a THACO of 18, leather armor and does x3 weapon dice on a successful backstab with one of the thief allowed weapons.

In 2e a fighter with 20,000 xp is level 5, has 5d10 HD ~27hp, a THACO of 16, can wear any armor and shield, use any weapon, and possibly has weapon specialization, fighter only hp bonuses from con, and/or fighter only percentile strength bonuses.

To be compared to a 4th level something the fourth level would have to be something like an elven multiclassed fighter 4/wizard 4 at 10,000 xp/10,000 xp, ~16 hp (the straight thief has more than the half wizard!), a THACO of 17, and limited to no armor (except elves with elven chain) if they want to cast spells (the thief probably has better armor), and can use any weapon, but no specialization.

20,000 xp gets a cleric and a wizard 5th level and a druid 6th.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

FYI, I started a thread to talk about AD&D magic items, for those interested.

AD&D- Overpowered Magic Items

So a quote from @DarkCrisis in the thread announcing the new PHB had me thinking... "I mean, you can use AD&D magic items in 5E games. Nothing really stops you." AD&D magic items! Oh yeah! Now, obviously, AD&D had magic items. I mean, you couldn't clear out a dungeon without tripping over the...

www.enworld.org

 

[Orius]

d10 against S/M.

3d6 WOOT against Large!


The two-handed sword in 1e- aka, SUCK IT, HALBERD.

(The illegitimate sword was, of course, 2d4/2d8).

I don't think the S-M/L damage ranges changed in 2e either. If they did it was for really obscure stuff no one used anyway. The common stuff is all the same, I believe.

And crossbows eventually. Combat & Tactics boosted their damage.

 

[James Gasik]

I don't think the S-M/L damage ranges changed in 2e either. If they did it was for really obscure stuff no one used anyway. The common stuff is all the same, I believe.

And crossbows eventually. Combat & Tactics boosted their damage.

I was very happy when I saw that C&T made crossbows worth using. They (along with slings and warhammers) were some of the weapons I always looked at their D&D stats for and just scratched my noggin', not understanding why they were so underpowered.

 

[Lanefan]

That is literally the 2e PH example of a backstab not working.

"Finally, the thief has to be able to reach a significant target area. To backstab a giant, the thief would have to be standing on a ledge or window balcony. Backstabbing him in the ankle just isn’t going to be as effective."

What does 2e have to do with anything? I thought we were talking about 1e.

 

[James Gasik]

What does 2e have to do with anything? I thought we were talking about 1e.

Well first this discussion started with this post:

2e Ambush

And the thread is about TSR editions of D&D, which 2e is.

Plus, while the ability doesn't say you must stab someone in the back, page 19 of the 1e DMG has this to say, heavily implying it:

 

[Mark Hope]

PHB backstab can get in the sea.

That's one of the first things we changed. If they don't know you're there, you can backstab them - that's all that's needed. In combat, they probably know you're there so get sneaky. If someone engages the target in melee, they're probably distracted, giving you an opening. And thus we accidentally invented the 5e flanking advantage rule

 

[Mannahnin]

That, and relative to most other classes Thieves level-bumped every time they sneezed; often putting them one or even two levels higher than most of the party.

Put another way, a 4th-level Thief is not equivalent to a 4th-level anything else, but a 5th might be and a 6th certainly is.

In 2e a 6th level thief has at least 20,000 xp, and gets 6d6 HD ~21hp, a THACO of 18, leather armor and does x3 weapon dice on a successful backstab with one of the thief allowed weapons.

In 2e a fighter with 20,000 xp is level 5, has 5d10 HD ~27hp, a THACO of 16, can wear any armor and shield, use any weapon, and possibly has weapon specialization, fighter only hp bonuses from con, and/or fighter only percentile strength bonuses.

To be compared to a 4th level something the fourth level would have to be something like an elven multiclassed fighter 4/wizard 4 at 10,000 xp/10,000 xp, ~16 hp (the straight thief has more than the half wizard!), a THACO of 17, and limited to no armor (except elves with elven chain) if they want to cast spells (the thief probably has better armor), and can use any weapon, but no specialization.

20,000 xp gets a cleric and a wizard 5th level and a druid 6th.

Voadam, don't forget that if we're talking 1E the elven F/M-U can wear whatever armor she wants and still cast. Although maybe you phrased it that way to point out that even under the restrictive rules making armor prevent M-U spellcasting from 2E and from Lanefan's house rules, the 4th/4th F/M-U still has a lot more they can do than the 6th level Thief, although they're one of the small percentage of characters at this XP bracket who are actually less durable than the Thief.

At this point I'm still a bit surprised when experienced players trot out the trope about Thieves being significantly further ahead (two or even more levels) than other classes, because it's almost never true.

It is BRIEFLY true that at low levels they are occasionally, for a particular small window of time, two levels ahead of the most expensive-to-advance classes. And obviously anyone who's multiclassed tends to lag a level or so behind the rest of the group. After a few levels Thieves tend to be one level ahead of most other PCs, at most. Not even that all the time.

Obviously in campaigns with individual XP and folks losing XP from level drain or death, bigger level gaps can develop, especially to the advantage of cautious characters who avoid death or level drain, but Thieves don't have a monopoly on that. M-Us, in particular, tend to get played off the front line.

 

[Lanefan]

Voadam, don't forget that if we're talking 1E the elven F/M-U can wear whatever armor she wants and still cast. Although maybe you phrased it that way to point out that even under the restrictive rules making armor prevent M-U spellcasting from 2E and from Lanefan's house rules, the 4th/4th F/M-U still has a lot more they can do than the 6th level Thief, although they're one of the small percentage of characters at this XP bracket who are actually less durable than the Thief.

The quickest way to make a Thief durable is, if you're lucky enough to roll two decent stats, to put the second-best stat into Con. Even Con 15 gives you +1 h.p. per level; Con 16+ gives you 2 h.p. per level, and those can add up over several levels. A F/MU (or any multiclass combo, for all that) is far less likely to have a spare high stat roll to throw into Con.

High Con also helps your saves vs poison, which is perhaps the number-one Thief killer IME.