Favorite Rogue/Bard sourcebook?

[johnsemlak]

In a previous thread I asked fellow gamers to share thoughts on the best Wizard/Arcane Magic sourcebooks.

What about sourcebooks for Rogues. Unfortunately, there aren't nearly as many, but there is a choice noththeless. Which do people recommend?

Below is a list of all Rogue-related sourcebooks I can find--please tell me if I've missed one.


Song and Silence
The Canting Crew (TLG)
The Quintessential Rogue
The Assassin's Handbook (Green Ronin)
The Way of the Ninja (AEG)
Traps and Treachery I & 2 (These are more 'Traps' sourcebooks than 'Rogue', but the descriptions say they have rogue feats and skills.)

Bard Sourcebooks (besides Song and Silence):
The Enchiridion of Mystic Music (S T Cooley Publishing) (Bard-only)
The Bard's Companion (FREE download from DM's haven) (Bard-only)
Path of Magic
Book of Eldritch Magic II (see comments below--Book II seems to have more on Bards than Book I)
Spells and Spellcraft

The Complete Rogue's Handbook (2e) (oops, that's the Complete Thief's Handbook)
The Complete Bard's Handbook (2e)

 

[jezter6]

The 2e handbook was amazing. I like converting some of the kits to PrC's (admittedly not very powerful, but they're fun for flavor).

Plus, all the special items they have in that book have been very valuable to my many rogue characters.

 

[johnsemlak]

Wow, this thread has been around for 2 days and the only vote so far is for the old 2e Rogue's handbook!

Upon looking through the reviews, Traps and Treachery seems to be the best IMO, though it seems to be oriented to DM's rather more than players. Any comments?

Also, can anybody comment on Traps and Treachery II?

 

[Donatello]

The best Bard sourcebook out there is Monte Cook's "Book of Eldritch Might II". The Bard variant makes the class worth playing, and the spellsong system is just excellent.

The best Rogue sourcebook is probably "Song and Silence", though I think they should have just called it "Silence", since the Bard stuff in there is laughable.

 

[Asheron]

Song and Silence

I would personally recommend Song and Silence, especialy for new players or players who never played a rogue before. There are some nifty basic tactics in there for how to maximize your rogue abilities and also basic but very important combat tactics. (look at the chapter with the nine rules f.e.). The rogue equipment is also nice.

The book just gives you al lot of ideas you can use whilst playing.

The more advanced 'rogue players' should check out the other books though

And yes I agree with Donatello that the bard is neglected in the Song and Silence, but that doesn't suprise me, if it was only because the Bard has always been a neglected class in 3e, even in the core books

 

[BV210]

Don't discount a couple of lesser known resources for bards: S.T. Cooley Publishing's "Enchiridion of Mystic Music" or DM Haven's "Bard's Companion". While neither are widely known, both are very good. Spencer "The Sigil" Cooley really put a lot of work into his book. Lots of good ideas for expanding the Bardic Music ability. Check them out. I know the Enchiridion can be picked up at RPGNow. I think the Bard's Companion is a freebie at DM's Haven. Both are worth a look.

 

[Shadeus]

I would add FFG's Path of Magic to that list. Although it does nothing for rogues, it has an amazing set of alternate rules for bards. (Some day I'll post my review of the book.) There's two key ideas it introduces:

a. alternate mystical performances (so not just singing to inspire, fascinate, etc.) of chanting, dancing, and instrumental. Each has its own restrictions and you have to spend a feat to get access to that type of mystical performance (singing is free and uses all the Perform related abilities from the PH).

b. using a bard's spells to enhance/alter other spellcaster's spells (both enemy and ally spells). The enhancements are similar to metamagic feats for allies and the reverse for enemies (shorted spell ranges, or dispelling it completely).

 

[Psion]

Offerings for Rogues and Bards are pretty slim.

For rogues, the only one I really think has much to offer Rogue characters is the Quintessential Rogue.

For Bards, someone else already mentioned path of magic. I'd also offer up Spells & Spellcraft (has alternate bardic casting rules) and the Enchiridion of Mystic Music (alternate rules for uses of bardic music).

 

[The Sigil]

Nice to see my humble offering, The Enchiridion of Mystic Music, get a little mention.

As far as rogues go, the pickings ARE pretty slim. You basically have Song & Silence and the Quint. Rogue. And in my opinion (only), neither are that great - there isn't much other than "nifty equipment" in either.

For bards, there is only a little more out there - you get a few ideas for new abilities in the Bard's Companion, Spells & Spellcraft, and Path of Magic. But each of these only provides you with half a dozen to a dozen pages. (Of course, books like Magic of Faerun and Spells & Magic offer more bardic spells, too, but I suspect that's not what you're looking for). FWIW, let me add a ringing endorsement to the Bard's Companion - it's free, so you can certainly afford it! Pick it up immediately. The other two books may or may not entice you to shell out $25. In my experience, that leaves only two books that offer big changes/options for a bard - Monte's variant Bard in the Book of Eldritch Might II, and the options introduced in the Enchiridion of Mystic Music.

The BoEM2 is good at what it does - redefining the class and rolling some of the musical abilities into "spellsongs." It is a nifty mechanic but has two problems - first of all, you can't really apply it to existing characters without a lot of work converting the character and secondly, the line between bardic music and spellcasting gets blurred to some degree. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it does kind of convert the bard into an "alternate arcane spellcaster."

The EoMM is good at what it does - expanding the options availabe to bards through their musical ability. Instead of six abilities a bard can use over his lifetime, it provides options for a total of eighty-four; four abilities at each Rank of Perform admittely, some are a bit redundant, being powered-up versions of previously granted abilities - but no worse than Summon Monster I, Summon Monster II, etc). Basically this is a book devoted entirely to expanding what a bard can do with his music ability - the one ability no other class has. Instead of limiting the ability to a few charm/enchantment/mind-affecting effects, it adds the option of doing things like summoning allies with song, passing knowledge on to allies, enhancing items, inflicting sonic damage, and even causing small earthquakes (don't worry - you need over 20 Ranks in Perform to pull this one off). If you're looking to take this route, I can't think of a better supplement. If you're not looking to take this route, it's probably not for you. the entire supplement revolves around the question "what ELSE could a bard do with his music?" It was also built to be super-easy to "plug-and-play" - it plugs right into the system, requiring no "remodeling" of existing characters, and you can use as much or as little as you want... it is extremely modular... you could use as little as one music ability with no need to add anything else from the book... though of course I hope you want to add more of what's in there.

One other thing - the EoMM is 99% OGC (the other 1% is my name, e-mail, and company name) so you can re-use it anywhere you want. Monte's Bard is also OGC - but the spellsongs are not designated as such. That makes it slightly more difficult to re-use (though I can't imagine Monte would deny permission for you to use them if you ask).

If you want more details/info on the EoMM, I'd be happy to provide it.

--The Sigil

 

[johnsemlak]

Thanks for all the suggestions, gamers. Keep -em coming. I've added titles people mentioned to the original list.

EoMM is on my to-buy list, it looks like a great value. I love pdf products, I think you get better value, particularly with this sort of sourcebook. As such, BoEMII is also on my to-buy list.

I'd to hear more about Traps and Treachery I and II. Book I has excellent reviews and looks great. Also, any comments on the Canting Crew (a E. G. Gygax product, no less)?