Feat builds for rogues

[Darklone]

I must be a moron, because I think Clerics are the most non-suckiest class out there. Maybe our definitions of "suck" do not coincide.

Let's see: One class with best armour stuff, cure machine, nice attack spells, medium BAB, 2 good base saves, 2 nifty domains and extra slots compared to other main spellcasters and a real good hitdice. No skills ... but who needs them in the seemingly typical games where magic is everything?

So my definition of the (Oh Erics granny forgive me) word is: They are too strong.

Back to the rogues: Singleclass rogues are too specialised. UMD is their best way to be versatile... but that costs money. They can't fight like a man, can't even take a beating like a cleric (where's all the practice from the street urchins gone?) and they can't even outrun a fighter. They have skills... but most groups rather use spells for these things anyway.

 

[Rel]

I'm genuinely curious as to why so many people in this thread think that Improved Initiative is a "must have" for Rogues. I've recently played a single-classed Rogue through level 8 and never took the feat and didn't feel like I was missing out on anything.

I'd expect that with my high Dex I'd be going first in more than my fair share of the combats anyway. And I don't have to beat every bad guy's initiative, just one of them and I can still get off a Sneak Attack in the first round.

Is a +4 to a single roll that only matters on the first round of combat really a "must have"?

 

[Darklone]

Is a +4 to a single roll that only matters on the first round of combat really a "must have"?

I think I can say yes for a sneaky group with appropriate tactics. No for a single rogue or barbarian in a group of slooooow tanks in heavy armour that will arrive in round 4 for melee.

 

[satori01]

TWF is obviously great for a melee rogue as it doubles your sneak attack dmg at low levels. Skill focus tumble is also useful if you are using the variant tumble rules from AU.

Expertise is a feat that is underappreciated by rogues. The AC advantages of Expertise coupled with fighting defensively can keep a rogue in the thick of things, acting as a distracting target, until he or she,(or it), can get into "sneak attack position". Sometimes the rogue will even hit while doing this.
Disarm is also useful and fun for a swashbuckler type character.

Exotic prof spiked chain can also be fun. Lets your rogue attack from distance and tumble in to flank and deal sneak attack damage. Coupled with Disarm and Combat Reflexes and one can engender a little havoc from a distance.

The Psi handbook has a number of Psionic Feats that could be very usefull for a rogue. Some allow you to run on walls, chose which square you count as flanking, and even allow you to flank from mutiple squares,(ie you count as flanking someone even if you are not). If I was playing a human rogue I might use the bonus feat to chose Wild Talent and gain access to the Psionic Feats.

 

[Caliber]

Isn't there a PrC in CW that allows you to flank from multiple squares as well?

 

[ph0rk]

Actually, I'm loath to multiclass. I avoid it for flavor reasons, unless there's a good reason for it. I know the game encourages it a lot (like prestige classes that virtually require multiclassing). And those bonus fighter feats look nice. Still, I'd rather keep my rogue 'rogueish' (word?), but make him as effective in combat as possible (of course, there are lots of areas for a rogue to shine besides combat).

What is the good reason -not- to multiclass?

If you really want to be effective at combat, you'll have to distribute your ability points with that in mind, which most likely will hamper your ability to be a face-man. That leaves sneaky-scouty type skills and dungeon delving type skills. (Most rogues can't master all three areas anyway).

If only one of these is important, for example sneaky-scouty stuff, why are you not multiclassing?

You want to be sneaky, and you want to be able to hit things.... rogue + fighter, ranger, or barbarian. Hell, the extra movement from the barbarian alone is reason enough to take a level of that, especially since the 2nd level barbarian uncanny dodge stacks with the rogue version. A move of 40 (or 30 if you're playing a runt) really helps to position for those sneak attacks. don't forget all the other bonuses of taking a warrior level... access to pole arms, longbows, etc.

At higher levels (say, 10+) you will really notice a lack of the ability to hit often.


I'd recommend you think about what specific mechanical role you wish to fit (scout/skirmish, back row sniper, super-uber-skill man, etc) and then season with warrior classes to taste. If you wish to make a skills-focused rogue, you'll be lackluster in combat. If you want to be decent or better in combat, your skills will suffer (unless you choose to focus on a smaller set of skills).

Plan it now, so you don't end up lackluster at everything

 

[Thanee]

What would you say those are?

Mostly...

Uncountable ways to counter Sneak Attack at higher levels.

Low saves in BOTH important categories (save-or-die and save-or-be-my-slave ).

They are still very good in the skill department, but there are many ways to achieve a similar result with other means.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Longbow]

Hmm, the single class rogue gets no love? I´m in the camp that dislikes multiclassing. Why? Maxed UMD (and nice skills like spot, listen, search, move silently, hide) to use those higher level scrolls. So what if a monster is immune to sneak attack, just draw a wand or a scroll. They cost money, but the spell-casting classes use and buy them, too. If you have a character in the party that has a feat to create them even better.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think rogues can work quite well. A few good feat-chains:

1. Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Spring Attack

This lets you move into a flanking position attack, and retreat to a safe distance in one round.

1.5 This can be improved with Complete Warrior's Elusive Target

2. Combat Expertise, Improved Feint
This lets you bluff as a move equivalent action and sneak attack without flanking

2.5 If you're playing a high-strength rogue, Improved Trip could be helpful too--it will prevent foes from moving out of a flanked position.

3. Combat Reflexes plus reach weapon (Spiked chain is popular but the longspear requires no feats and rogues don't have a lot of feats to spare). This enables you to take AoOs on attacking foes and increases your flanking options.

4. Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, etc. If you're going to stay in melee range with a monster, this lets you get off a lot more sneak attacks from a flanking position.

5. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Precise Shot.

This really isn't a very good feat chain for a single-classed rogue. (Multiclassed rogues can make it work by relying on strength, favored enemy, and weapon specialization more than sneak attack for damage). There aren't many ways to get ranged sneak attacks on enemies--winning initiative, Greater Invisibility, Blink, Doomtide (the new cleric spell that creates a mist the caster and one other person can see through), and Grease (foes who succeed at the balance check are balancing and lose their dex bonus unless they have 5+ ranks of balance) are about the only ways and you can't count on having them available throughout combat on a regular basis (until high levels).

Some good individual feats:

1. Improved Initiative: This gives you a good chance to go first against quick monsters and an even better chance to go first against slow monsters.

2. Iron Will: Your will save is weak. Counteract it.

3. Great Fortitude: Your fort save is weak. Counteract it. (Unless, of course, you're multiclassing, in which case your fort save may be good).

4. Weapon Focus: +1 to hit never hurt

5. Luck of Heroes: More saves.

6. Strong Soul: Did I mention saves?

7. Improved Buckler Defense (Complete Warrior). Lets you benefit from the buckler you probably wear (you normally benefit from the AC whenever you can't make a full attack) and still attack with two weapons.

8. Improved Shield Bash. If you're a multiclassed rogue with a light shield this lets you keep the AC bonus and get your extra TWF sneak attack damage.

Multiclassing:
Fighter=good. Get extra feats (which you'll want if you're going up several chains of if ). Also, you can potentially get weapon specialization which helps your damage when you can't sneak attack. This is especially helpful for spring attack and two weapon fighting rogues. The fort save is nice too.

Barbarian=good (though you'll need a DM who lets you multi-class INTO barbarian). Fast movement helps the typical skirmisher fighting style, Uncanny dodge stacks, and rage helps a strength based rogue as well. The fort save is nice too.

Ranger=good. You get good skill points and good skills. The fighting styles are nice for flexibility (choosing a style you don't focus in and becoming versatile) or power (saving the feat you would ordinarily spend on two weapon fighting or rapid shot). The fort and reflex saves both help a lot. Choosing Undead as a favored enemy helps to keep you effective against undead.

Wizard= OK. You lose hit points and BAB which hurts but your spells can make you better at your other roles. (Chill touch, for instance, is a great way to deliver sneak attacks). Arcane Trickster is a very nice prestige class too.

The foes that will give you trouble will be undead, constructs, and plants. Fortunately, only undead are often the centerpiece monster of an adventure or campaign. So, find a way to deal with undead. If needed, you can be the tanglefoot bag thrower and general party enabler at low levels and the wand/scroll user at high levels. However, your options aren't limited to that. Since rogues typically have good dex, they will often have the best touch AC in the party--something that means rogues can often hold the line against incorporeal undead better than fighters. (A typical mid level rogue might have a modified dex of 20, a mithral chain shirt, 13 ranks of tumble, and a +1 ring of protection--if he fights defensively, his touch AC is 19--20 if he has dodge and 25 if he uses Combat Expertise too--more if he's in a magic circle vs. evil or if the cleric casts Shield of Faith on him. And, against incorporeal attacks, it's even higher if he uses UMD for shield. That can be hard for a lot of undead to hit. If the cleric gives you a disrupting weapon, you can go to town. You might also want to consider making one of your weapons undead bane. For a relatively cheap enhancement, you can stay in the game against undead. Also consider talking the cleric into casting Imbue with Spell Ability on you. He's going to be spending his time turning and that would let you do some combat healing during that time.

 

[Axegrrl]

Flanker Rogue: Go for Spring attack. Max Tumble. Take a level of barbarian. Buys boots of S&S. Spring in, SA, spring out. This works pretty well whith a tough Tank ally that can stand and act as your flanking buddy.

Does the Fast Movement from the barbarian class stack with other Fast Movement class abilities (e.g., dervish)?

Ranger=good. ... Choosing Undead as a favored enemy helps to keep you effective against undead.

There's a feat somewhere that makes your sneak attacks useful against undead... or take a level of Cleric and go for the Skullclan Hunter PrC, with the Divine Strike ability at 2nd level (and lots of anti-undead defenses afterwards, plus some increases in sneak attack damage). One level of Cleric and two levels of Skullclan Hunter also nets you +2 Fort, +3 Ref, and +5 Will saves.