D&D 5E Feats as upward level adjustment

[AverageCitizen]

Could work.

I have to say that I'm partial to monstrous PCs being... y'know, monstrous. It always made me cringe when a level 1 character of a monstrous race (which had been brought in line with normal PC races) was far weaker than his "run-of-the-mill" compatriots.

Yeah, that is a main concern for me here. A lot of the savage species characters (and the 4e minotaur) felt like you were playing the runt of the litter until you caught up.

 

[Tormyr]

I'd much rather see actual racial levels instead of LA, like those presented in 3.almost5's Savage Species. LA was like "Hey! I'm going to start out as this great, powerful race that's better than all of you at 1st level, but I have to let my XP sit on it's butt until you all catch up to me. If you survive, that is, which I have a much better chance at, because I'm more awesomer at 1st level."

Give starting racial benefits on par with the existing races, then have a racial class the character can opt to take levels from if they want to gain additional benefits of the race. Or must take levels in. Or have to take levels in at specific class levels, like a substitution level ("Your character is level 5 now, so you need to take the level of minotaur that makes you Large.") Whatever. Just, please, no Level Adjustments.

For 5E, this opens up some interesting possibilities, too. Like "subclasses" of a racial class. If a minotaur turns out to be worth a 5 level racial class, maybe at 3rd level, you choose "Maze Runner" or "Buffalo Soldier" as an option which highlights specific sub-race or cultural differences of your race.

I agree that starting traits should be on par with everyone else, embracing the "balanced in its unbalancedness" of 5e (i.e. not everyone gets the same stuff, but they contribute over the long run roughly equally). I think that rather than racial levels, as some sort of multiclassing (like having to take a level of minotaur at your fifth character level) race specific feats might be a better option. Then the character can choose to take them or not and they do not interfere with normal character progression. It would also be easier to make feats equivalent to the existing PHB feats over racial levels I would think.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Yeah, that is a main concern for me here. A lot of the savage species characters (and the 4e minotaur) felt like you were playing the runt of the litter until you caught up.

Minotaurs aren't born with 9HD, you know

 

[Tormyr]

Yeah, that is a main concern for me here. A lot of the savage species characters (and the 4e minotaur) felt like you were playing the runt of the litter until you caught up.

How would he be the runt of the litter? He is still a level 1 character versus the MM minotaur which is much more advanced. As a large character, he can lift twice the load of a medium or small PC of equivalent stats. Just because he is a large, monstrous creature does not mean he should be any better at hitting something with his big weapon though.

Not trying to be snarky or anything. I am really trying to understand where this is coming from and whether the weakness really exists in a 5e style setup in case I ever get something like this at my table.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I agree that starting traits should be on par with everyone else, embracing the "balanced in its unbalancedness" of 5e (i.e. not everyone gets the same stuff, but they contribute over the long run roughly equally). I think that rather than racial levels, as some sort of multiclassing (like having to take a level of minotaur at your fifth character level) race specific feats might be a better option. Then the character can choose to take them or not and they do not interfere with normal character progression. It would also be easier to make feats equivalent to the existing PHB feats over racial levels I would think.

With the complexity of 5E feats, I could see that. Care would have to be taken to make sure some more powerful abilities aren't gained too soon, perhaps by having level prereqs, and abilities spread out across multiple feats, with less powerful racial feats also serving as prerequisites.

Note one side affect of doing this: if the racial features are spread out across more than one feat, a character with the fighter class will be able to gain their full racial features faster just because they're a fighter, and get their 2nd feat earlier than anyone else.

 

[AverageCitizen]

How would he be the runt of the litter? He is still a level 1 character versus the MM minotaur which is much more advanced. As a large character, he can lift twice the load of a medium or small PC of equivalent stats. Just because he is a large, monstrous creature does not mean he should be any better at hitting something with his big weapon though.

Not trying to be snarky or anything. I am really trying to understand where this is coming from and whether the weakness really exists in a 5e style setup in case I ever get something like this at my table.

So, in 3e, level 1 racial class Minotaur was a runt compared to other minotaurs (which were like, CR 7), not compared to the rest of the party.

Edit: damn autocorrect

 

[Wrathamon]

I would hate to see level adjustment brought back ... we have ymany many ears of seeing how it didnt work, and that was in a system that player characters and monsters used the same system for generation.

5e doesnt use the same rules for monsters. Monsters are monsters and balanced to be monsters to fight players at certain levels, not be used as player characters. Monsters use weird rules that aren't meant to be balanced for multiple encounters or during every day play.

Savage Species monsters levels are the closest thing I can think of on how you might do it, but that system wasn't much fun because a lot of the cool iconic stuff didnt happen at first level, and it was just awkward.

I still think its better to design PC Races that are based on monsters then to try and play a monster from the monster manual or make a Minotaur Class with 20 levels (maybe 10) and give them more abilities then what the monster has. Similar to the crazy vampire class concept of 4e which strangely worked.

you would have the base minotaur race that is balanced with the other races or you can own your monstrous heritage and advance in the Minotaur Class which makes you basically the Lord of Minotaurs. But, it isnt recreating/breaking down the monster as a class but creating a race and class inspired by the monster.

 

[Tormyr]

Note one side affect of doing this: if the racial features are spread out across more than one feat, a character with the fighter class will be able to gain their full racial features faster just because they're a fighter, and get their 2nd feat earlier than anyone else.

I could see this working story-wise in the case of the minotaur because minotaurs naturally seem to have a proclivity to being fighters. Although it may not work as well for other races.

 

[Tormyr]

So, in 3e, level 1 racial class Minotaur was a runt compared to other minotaurs (which were like, CR 7), not compared to the rest of the party.

Edit: damn autocorrect

That makes sense to me though. PCs fight CR7 minotaurs who have been fighting possibly for years while a level 1 minotaur PC is essentially just starting out in the adventuring world.

It is important to remember that HP is not drops of blood that you can lose before you die. It is an abstraction of how much punishment you can take and stamina to continue in a fight. A level 1 minotaur PC can be just as big, burly and healthy as an enemy minotaur, but it is not as experienced in adventuring. It is not as good at turning aside enemy weapons. Enemy's strikes find critical areas more easily, and the PC cannot shrug off as much damage. This is represented by a PC with 20 hp falling to fewer blows than a PC with 100 hp. Both PCs of a similar race have similar amounts of blood, but the more experienced PC with more hp is more adept at minimizing damage taken and shrugging off the effects before falling unconscious.

 

[Dausuul]

I have to say that I'm partial to monstrous PCs being... y'know, monstrous. It always made me cringe when a level 1 character of a monstrous race (which had been brought in line with normal PC races) was far weaker than his "run-of-the-mill" compatriots.

That's my feeling, too. I don't think minotaur PCs belong in a 1st-level campaign. I'd much rather have minotaur PCs that are honest-to-God, full-powered minotaurs, and you simply can't play one at 1st level.

Here's what I'd do with it:

MINOTAUR
Level Adjustment 5: You are treated as having 5 levels in your own class. You can multiclass into one additional class without meeting any stat requirements.
Monstrous Hit Dice: You gain an extra 8d10 hit dice, and hit points equal to 8d10 (or 48) plus 8 times your Constitution modifier.
Ability Scores: You get +5 Strength. If this would increase your Strength above 20, instead assign the excess points to ability scores of your choice, to a maximum of 20 in any score.
Large Size: You are Large-sized and can wield Large-sized weapons, which deal twice the base weapon damage of normal weapons and cost four times as much.
Gore: You have a natural gore attack that deals 2d8 points of piercing damage.
Charge: Once per turn, if you move at least 10 feet straight toward a target and then hit it with a gore attack on the same turn, the target takes an extra 2d8 piercing damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed up to 10 feet away and knocked prone. The DC for this saving throw is 8 plus your Strength modifier plus your proficiency bonus.
Labyrinthine Recall: You can perfectly recall any path you have traveled.
Darkvision: You have darkvision out to 60 feet.