Feats & Fighters

[Neonchameleon]

I mean basically what you're saying is you don't understand why the monster isn't bothering to take its full movement, instead of shifting 1 square, when it will be attacked either way.

What I'm saying is that you're giving the monsters information there is no reason for them to have. The monster doesn't know everything on the PC's stat sheet. They just know the effects that are impacting them. The monster knows it is marked or in the defender's aura or whatever, but doesn't know what (if anything) will happen next. Until they've seen it happen they have no reason to know that moving carefully and making sure they are on guard is more dangerous to them than hurrying when this isn't true at any other point in the game (including a Cavalier's Defender Aura).

Defender Aura and Mark affect the victim so the victim knows all about them. Battle Guardian, Combat Challenge, and Combat Superiority are all part of the PC's class features so the monsters are not inherently aware of them. I don't show my PCs the monster stat blocks in the fight and I don't expect my monsters to read the PC's stat blocks. And only the exceptionally smart ones to have that level of detailed knowledge about what the PCs can do. And even then they need to be disciplined enough to do the opposite of what their training is telling them to.

Noting that Knights hate Wraiths with a burning passion of the sun because the sods turn invisible anyway.

Oh indeed. On the other hand my Beholder got buzz-sawed by a Cavalier the other day. PC turn start. Beholder eye ray. Automatic aura violation damage. Repeat for shedloads of HP per turn.

(Of course the trick in that fight was keeping the Beholder next to the Cavalier - and making sure the Cavalier wasn't busy being a statue).

It normally is the case the smarter creatures are the ones you have to watch for too :O

I think we have different thresholds for the level of smartness needed to do this.

So I think the Knight has gained an absolute ton from these feats and the weaponmaster has gained, um. Nothing really.

I'd definitely agree that CAGI is worth a feat and a power strike for a knight. Even the new version - the old would just have been brutal. (Meanwhile the fighter gains a Close Burst 3 Mark *wince*).

 

[Aegeri]

What I'm saying is that you're giving the monsters information there is no reason for them to have.

Creatures rapidly figure these things out and are aware of how conditions applied work. At most a knight will get a single shift maybe, but other than that creatures just aren't dumb enough to bother and will just move away. At the same time, this is actually missing the point for the most part.

Noting that this behaviour isn't unique to the Knight - I do this to all defenders in the game (except the weaponmaster). The battlemind in my Dark Sun game has melee training as one of the first feats he got. This is because I would simply walk away from him a good chunk of the time otherwise. Then again, I do anyway so it's not really a huge issue except that he also has Loadstone Lure. You'll notice I complained about the fact some defenders like battleminds cannot make OAs natively (without melee training anyway) and I think that is silly, this is basically why.

You're actually thinking about this entirely in the wrong manner than I am. The point isn't that to avoid the half damage on a miss mark punishment, the point is that the OA doesn't make a huge difference to what I would be doing in the first place. This is attempting to move the creature into the best position possible to use a burst or blast (9/10 this is the reason). The only defender I refuse to provoke OAs from is the fighter. I also won't provoke if a character can suitably threaten with a condition (Cavaliers Daze, Knight with Defend the Line + World's Serpents Grasp who has hit the monster before in the combat). I actually think more about what the PC might be able to do when he does hit and very little care about the actual OA. In this way my DMing style is very unique. If I see an opportunity to use a limited encounter burst power on 3 wounded PCs and the monster is smart enough to do that: That's what he attempts to do. I will happily provoke an OA - unless given no other choice like the fighter - to actually do it.

In this way, the Knights deficiencies are really clear. In many cases the annoyance of the mark penalty often prevents a large amount of damage (swordmage shielding for example) or outright causes it to miss. Being able to attack at a full attack bonus at the cost of some HP is actually an incredible deal for many monsters. The superior position and the chance of downing important PCs like the leader or controller is just too much to pass up.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Creatures rapidly figure these things out and are aware of how conditions applied work. At most a knight will get a single shift maybe, but other than that creatures just aren't dumb enough to bother and will just move away.

I trust then that they also move away from fighters after finding out that fighters can clobber them if they shift. After all, how can they tell an interrupt from an opportunity? (Or if you assume some meta-knowledge, two of them try to shift away at the same time?)

You're actually thinking about this entirely in the wrong manner than I am. The point isn't that to avoid the half damage on a miss mark punishment, the point is that the OA doesn't make a huge difference to what I would be doing in the first place.

Would your monsters take OAs from any other class to move into position?

I also won't provoke if a character can suitably threaten with a condition (Cavaliers Daze, Knight with Defend the Line + World's Serpents Grasp who has hit the monster before in the combat).

Once more I ask, how do the monsters know about this? Unless they've seen it in action (and I mean the actual knocking prone part of WSG not just the slows).

I will happily provoke an OA - unless given no other choice like the fighter - to actually do it.

The big questions are will you provoke on non-defenders? And if the monster can shift into position will they against a Knight?

 

[hbnetto]

Aegeri, what i think neochameleon wants to say: how do your monsters guess hell character is a knight or a weaponmaster-

"see- it is not a knight, then we should step away and charge! Dangerouzz"

 

[Aegeri]

Aegeri, what i think neochameleon wants to say: how do your monsters guess hell character is a knight or a weaponmaster

Simple observation as one is much more effective than the other at stopping movement. I already pointed out my default is to walk away from defenders half the time anyway. Like a battlemind will follow you with blurred step and then get an OA for example if you shift + charge. So you might as well not bother shifting, just move and attack if you have a superior power.

Because the point isn't to avoid anything specifically about the Knight, he just happens to suffer the most because what I'm doing is getting the monster in the best position to use whatever power I am intending. And shift+charge isn't effective at that (unless it was an MBA). The weaponmaster is the only character I don't do this to often because it basically never works.

I trust then that they also move away from fighters after finding out that fighters can clobber them if they shift. After all, how can they tell an interrupt from an opportunity? (Or if you assume some meta-knowledge, two of them try to shift away at the same time?)

Yes. Interrupts and opportunity attacks can be differentiated. The PCs have exactly the same knowledge for the most part. For example, I specify what attacks are interrupts and opportunity attacks - I always have actually.

Would your monsters take OAs from any other class to move into position?

Yeah, quite consistently actually because many other classes have terrible MBAs - including many strictly melee classes. I have often provoked attacks from other classes as well. This is only coming up in this thread because I'm talking about the Knight, but I pretty much provoke from everyone if the situation seems advantageous.

Once more I ask, how do the monsters know about this? Unless they've seen it in action (and I mean the actual knocking prone part of WSG not just the slows).

Again, that is actually just observation and depends on the intelligence of the creature. Things like dragons have fought countless battles and so are innately familiar with the kinds of tricks that heroes have. A zombie, not so much.

The big questions are will you provoke on non-defenders?

Yes.

Why wouldn't I? Do you think I have a monster sit in terror of the wizards terribly threatening OA with his staff?

And if the monster can shift into position will they against a Knight?

Why would they? You can frequently move into a much better position in the first place and with little risk. Many monsters aren't idiots and can determine the same information the PCs can about how things work. Shifting in this situation though would be to avoid OAs from characters that were not the knight, like a nearby thief. There are numerous examples where I will deliberately not shift and provoke from the thief, to avoid a weaponmasters OA. I'd sooner take the thieves OA than lose the entire move action.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Aegeri, what i think neochameleon wants to say: how do your monsters guess hell character is a knight or a weaponmaster-

"see- it is not a knight, then we should step away and charge! Dangerouzz"

In general, creatures know if they're under an effect or threat. So, yeah, a monster facing a fighter knows it's looking at an attack for shifting or attacking someone else. And, the one facing a Knight knows the same thing, and that it's an Aura 1 he just stepped into.

 

[Aegeri]

In general, creatures know if they're under an effect or threat. So, yeah, a monster facing a fighter knows it's looking at an attack for shifting or attacking someone else. And, the one facing a Knight knows the same thing, and that it's an Aura 1 he just stepped into.

Actually that is quite debatable in itself, because the rule is a bit ambiguous. It's worth noting, now I've slept on the debate with Neonknight overnight that I actually specify these things. For example a PC marked by a creature, knows what the creature will be able to do something if it takes certain actions. I have run all my games this way for some time, due to a very difficult encounter with two enemies with a variety of teleport/mark/free actions. Actually the encounter frustrated and angered my players so much that I actually felt genuinely bad. This is why I chose to just make it clear what an effect placed on a PC lets a creature do. I don't say complete specifics, but they are aware they may provoke an attack under X, Y and Z conditions.

Some DMs will run it like Neonchameleon interprets it, where the creature is unaware of the conditions that the mark can be enforced by the character. In my case, I have ruled it as a function of the creatures intellect. The better the intelligence and more "hardened" it is, the more it is self aware of how a PCs powers interact. Things like a zombie are always idiots and have no concept how a PC fights in any manner (so make the most mistakes and fight completely stupidly). Similarly, PCs can tell how monsters will interact with their powers and hence can make sensible tactical decisions. I will tell a PC outright if a monster has no attacks on its mark for example. I do not require monster knowledge checks for this, but a check performed on a monster in advance can key a PC into the creature having such marks and powers available to it first (which can be significant, like in my last DS session with the thri-kreen).

 

[WalterKovacs]

In general, creatures know if they're under an effect or threat. So, yeah, a monster facing a fighter knows it's looking at an attack for shifting or attacking someone else. And, the one facing a Knight knows the same thing, and that it's an Aura 1 he just stepped into.

Technically speaking:

They know they are marked by a weaponmaster. They know they are in an aura around the knight. The fighter's interupt power is a seperate power. Ditto the knight's OA power. A fighter's mark, or a warden's mark are basically equivalent to a monster. It is "just" a mark, and the interupt punishment is a power the monster isn't subjected to until it hits them. Ditto with the knight's aura being the same as a cavalier's aura, neither would indicate there IS an OA power, nor which of the two it is. (and, it may be even harder to figure out, since knights in plate may be hard to recognize compared to cavalier's in plate).

The Swordmage Aegis or Divine Challenge/Divine Sanction is different. They are a single power which not only marks the creature but ALSO imposes a penalty when they "ignore" the mark. Since it's all one power, the monster immediately knows all the consequences of the effect that has been put onto him.

Now a monster may be able to get advanced information on tha party, or other similar creatures. [Of course, because NPCs are different than PCs ... it's quite possible that a monster spent it's entire life fighting, but never encountered a knight or a weaponmaster ... only facing other monsters, with their own methods of 'defendering', or maybe warden's, battlemind's, paladin's, swordmage's, etc, etc, etc ... The sheer number of different types, including stuff PCs don't get access to, would make the ability to immediately identify a PC's capabilities low unless the monster has a history with PCs, either this party or PC type characters in general. This doe sort of depend on the kind of world the DM has set up ... are PCs exceptional ... with qualities that aren't common even at early levels (in which case, most NPCs/monsters have fought many more NPC/monster type creatures in their lifetime than PCs). Or are PCs all over, with most NPCs having class levels basically (i.e. the city guard, while lower level than the party, are made up of fighters, rangers, warlords, etc.

Obviously, once he sees the person do it once, it's easy to figure out what is going on, but technically he only knows what powers have been used against him. The powers that trigger off someone that is marked/in the aura doing something aren't part of the initial power, and not part of the information the enemy knows about.

To put it another way ... a warlock curses someone ... they know that if the warlock hits them they'll take extra damage. They don't, however, immediately know about any warlock power that targets only someone he has cursed ... or any immediate action powers that trigger off something happening to the cursed guy. The same applies with fighter/knight/cavalier/etc interupts/OA powers. The exceptions are when the power that marks includes the punishement, like with Divine Challenge et al.

 

[Frankie1969]

The problem is due to the Knights inability to hold those creatures attention, the wizard is already unconscious and won't be beguiling stranding anything. Followed shortly by the leader once the monsters decide to mob him next. That's uh, kind of the Knights problem when he can be disengaged extremely easily. Unless we talk about a completely character optimized knight (Dwarf, Defend the Line - which really is an absolute must have stance - and worlds serpents grasp).

We had a discussion - much like the one I am having right now with you - about the Knight. So we manned up, made a knight and subbed him for the fighter.

Surely if you're right the Knight won't be a disaster? Bear in mind the knight wasn't a dwarf with the stuff I keep mentioning. I suspect it wouldn't have been anywhere near this sadistic if I had optimized it in the fashion I mentioned, but whatever.

I know the thread is a week stale, but no one called you on this point and it's been bugging me.

First, you created not just an unoptimized knight, but an ANTI-optimized knight that specifically did not have the right tools for the encounter. A build that you know can be impaired by pushes, without movement resistance, against an enemy with a slide aura... WTF?

Second, you based your experiment on a capstone encounter. Your players have been together for a while, know each others abilities, and work well as a team. Then you remove a central character and replace it with a different one that has substantially different strengths and weaknesses, requiring substantially different tactics. Even if the knight were optimal, throwing the altered party into a tough encounter without practice would almost certainly result in a worse outcome.

I do agree that that knight has some scaling issues, but the fact is you rigged the fight, and it reflects poorly on you.

 

[twilsemail]

First, you created not just an unoptimized knight, but an ANTI-optimized knight that specifically did not have the right tools for the encounter. A build that you know can be impaired by pushes, without movement resistance, against an enemy with a slide aura... WTF?

Yeah. He does that when he needs to prove a point. You get used to it.