Feeblemind and spell-like abilities

[plavi]

If a demon were down to 1 INT I'd run him as having reverted back to his most basic form. Rip, tear, shred, die.

Yessir he would

But if you think it should still be able to deal with rational logistics like range, duration, targetting, area of effects, and use his will to bend the Weave to his liking to produce magical effects as a 20th level sorcerer... Well, I think that phrase there should be rather telling. But it's up to you. That's just my opinion.

Ah, now we are getting to the point. I wholly agree the whateverkindofdemonitis will not take to the highground, will not teleport to any other place then what is either the furthest away of the safest place he knows (Balor kindergarten maybe? ).
And indeed, the Balor will not point at someone that he really dislikes and think 'now I want you to implode for I know it is a XXX save and you look like a fighter so I bet you can't take this' but just roar something very impolite and unleash his most devastating, powerfull, allconsuming attack at him, even if he formerly knew or had been told the character would be immune or whatever. No thoughts, no tactics, the most deadly thing in the array and then working down the list untill one of the fighting parties is dead or fled. Or maybe I should just randomize which spells he will cast, and randomize at which character, or just keep on going at one character until he or the Balor is dead? Or fled of course.

 

[IceBear]

I understand both sides of the argument.

As the DM, ask yourself this question - do you think your players would accept the Balor still using spell-like abilities (in an instinctual fashion). If that would upset them, I wouldn't do it. If you think they could accept it still using these abilites then go for it.

As much as I understand your point about it being second-nature for them, I agree that by the rules using spell-like abilities takes a level of concentration that I think wasn't intended to be possible with Feeblemind.

IceBear

 

[plavi]

Thanx

All,

Thanx for all your input, and your comments especially when they didn't agree with my views.

I think I'll do it as follows:
-supernatural and extraordinary abilities, no problem
-the spell-like abilities: I guess I'll make a selection of the abilities I think are really FFF (Fear, Fight, Flight) like, and skip all powers that really require judgement or insight (illusions, charm, etc)
-the abilities that I will use I will use in a way I would think, indeed, a lizard or snake would do. And though it may not be very intelligent (doh), I may be cunning (though in a straightforward and after 2 times very predictable way).

Once again, thanx!

Chris

 

[daemonslye]

Hmmm. Kinda thought teleport required you to visualize a
place your remembered.

SRD:

Teleport without Error
...The character must have at least a reliable description of the place to which the character is teleporting. If the character attempts to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), the character disappears and simply reappears in the character's original location.

Myself, I would not allow teleport unless he is teleporting
within visual range (actually INT1 for a demon = a smart
lemure (yes, I know a lemure is a devil..).). Assuming I allowed
a 1INT creature to use spell like abilties:

MMp.50

Lemure surge toward anything they meet and try to
claw it apart. Only a telepathic command from other devils or the complete destruction of the lemures can make them stop.

So maybe the 1INT demon can, after getting really hurt, try to
run away. But teleport? Ah, no.

~D

 

[gfunk]

For those of you who care, the Sage has ruled that spell-like abilities do not function when Feebleminded. Last time I asked this very question, Kreynolds posted the Sage's response.

Kreynolds where are you?

 

[ruleslawyer]

Amen.

My personal qualm about allowing SLAs while feebleminded is that the rules governing SLAs do imply that they take some effort to use. Note that SLAs require a standard action, provoke AoOs, and require a Concentration check to complete successfully if the user is damaged or distracted. That to me implies that the user of an SLA must concentrate on using the ability. I simply don't equate such concentration with an Int of 1, which, as the spell description implies, really means being restricted to the base functioning of the r-complex. I concede that hong's correct on the rules as written (the Sage's comment therefore constituting near-errata rather than simple interpretation), but I'm not comfortable with the conclusion it generates.

 

[plavi]

More thoughts

I've been reading through the MM, at the entry of the Erinyes (which is the demon in question, though they will be meeting more and bigger ones shortly).

To my surprise, abilities like Tongues and Charm Person are supernatural abilities and so should function anyhow. I guess it'll be something like this: 'That beautiful woman looks at you with helpless eyes, and you just cannot imagine your partymembers being so wicked to her; she's only minding her own business. You drown in her puppy-look and a feeling of protection and overwhelming love are yours'..... or something.

She won't communicate any intelligent plans to the victim of course, other than a mental image (she herself also has as a feeling at that moment) of either 'Kill Kill Kill destroy maim and make them bleed' or 'Kaï kaï kaï run away with tail between legs'.

Still, it's a difficult matter. The SLA's include Invisibility, See Invisibility and i.e. Unholy Blight and Produce Flame. And while I indeed do see that spell-like abilities like Unholy Blight and Produce Flame require targeting etc, a See Invisibility is more something that I'd consider a 'innate' ability and something constantly in effect, just as Tongues would be.

Pfffft, difficult....

 

[hong]

Without even the intelligence of an animal predator, I'd have the demon or dragon behave as a baby. Intelligence 1 is not a confused elderly person, or a distracted grade schooler, intelligence 1 isn't even an arrogant house cat. It's a toad that doesn't know enough to jump out of a cup of water being slowly heated to a boil around him.

It's also a giant crocodile, a shark (multiple sizes), a constrictor snake, or a poisonous snake. All of these are quite able to take care of themselves. If anything, Int scores probably reflect some speciesism (us warmblooded mammals must be smarter).

I wouldn't read too much into whether something has Int 1 or 2. D&D's sweet spot is in dealing with creatures of roughly human size and intelligence. Once you get outside that sweet spot, you run into issues of scaling, whether it's small creatures on a fixed-scale battlemap, or dumb creatures with big powers.

I don't think I'd allow them to be able to figure out how their spell like abilities work, as it probably takes concentration and concentrated will power to enact a Meteor Swarm or Wish or a Teleport without Error. While they need not say certain words, pull strange components, or twitch their fingers in certain patterns, it's still magic that they are employing mentally.

Thinking too hard about fantasy is bad.

 

[plavi]

How it worked out...

Last night it indeed happened, the Evil Party (evil in my DM-eyes at least ) did a Feeblemind at the good and helpful Demonic Erinyes.

Feebleminded, she attacked the nearest partymember and started bashing him to death with her Staff of Defense. All the powers she previously had (such as see invisibility and circle of protection from evil) I left in place for since they are at will and with a duration I consider them being in effect all the time (would be stupid not to) unless special circumstances dictate otherwise.

Then, when the other partymembers came to help and together started attacking her, her feral survival instincts made her run away (after checking if she might just drop everything in hand) but she was at the last moment still defeated and screaming went back to her own plane.

That was it, no problems or discusions, just the logical thing to do.

Thanx for all your input

Chris

 

[Jeremy]

Thinking too hard about fantasy is bad.

Heh. Too true, too true. But then again, that's why we have the Sage. If we want to think, we can think and discuss and reason at it until we are blue in the face. Or if we don't want to think, we can default to his ruling then discuss and reason whether the or not the Sage is sane until we are blue in the face.

For those of you who care, the Sage has ruled that spell-like abilities do not function when Feebleminded. Last time I asked this very question, Kreynolds posted the Sage's response.

What is that? Like 4th hand knowledge now?