Feinting Undead?

[AnonymousOne]

So here's a question for you. Is it possible to feint an undead opponent?

I would assume that any undead which is self aware (liches, and various evil-alligned undead of a high enough inteligence) can be feinted, but is there any sort of blanket statement about Feinting an undead opponent?

 

[Bloosquig]

Sure, think about all the zombie movies where people fake the zombies out by going "Durrhhh..." and walking with their hands out. You may need to be a bit more obvious about what your gonna pretend to do so an unintelligent undead could figure it out but I think it would still work.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would assume that any undead which is self aware (liches, and various evil-alligned undead of a high enough inteligence) can be feinted, but is there any sort of blanket statement about Feinting an undead opponent?

No, but skeletons and zombies are not susceptible to feints:

Feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because it’s harder to read a strange creature’s body language; you take a –4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.

Liches, vampires, etc, are not immune (they are not nonintelligent), but their Type is Undead, not Humanoid, so you take the -4 penalty.

-Hyp.

 

[glass]

Liches, vampires, etc, are not immune (they are not nonintelligent), but their Type is Undead, not Humanoid, so you take the -4 penalty.

...and even if you successfully feint them, you still can't sneak attack them.

I'm almost sure verybody knows that, but SA being the primary reason for wanting to feint I just wanted to make absolutely sure.


glass.

 

[heirodule]

No, but skeletons and zombies are not susceptible to feints:

Feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because it’s harder to read a strange creature’s body language; you take a –4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.

Wierd.

In a feint, you make it look like youre going to attack zone A, but then you pull back and attack zone b. So you make the opponent use his dex against the bluff attack, which leaves him open to your reall attack.

But if the nonintelligent creatures are immune to this, that means that they're actually so perceptive that they only apply their dexterity to real attacks. Or they're so focussed that they can't be distracted by things coming at zone A if the enemy doesn't really mean to attack zone A, and they always defend the important zones.

Its like all intelligent creatures are actually using wisdom and dex for AC, and the dumb ones are only using dex.

Why can unintelligent creatures ever be 'flat footed' then? Aren't they just as perceptive against enemies during a fight as before a fight?

 

[PallidPatience]

They just don't react to attacks, actually. It has nothing to do with being perceptive. They just can't be fooled because they don't really react or understand body language.

 

[pawsplay]

They just don't react to attacks, actually. It has nothing to do with being perceptive. They just can't be fooled because they don't really react or understand body language.

More to the point, their reaction is precisely that described by their Dex bonus to AC.

 

[phindar]

Well, there are a couple of special abilities and spells that allow one to apply Sneak Attack damage to undead, so it might come in handy to be able to Feint them.

While I get the reasoning behind not Feinting non-intelligent creatures, I can argue the other side a little. Feinting is opposed by Sense Motive, which is Wisdom-based, which almost all creatures have. And if you think of it in Zombie Movie cliches (esp as D&D zombies are the slow, shambling original NotLD style, and not the 28 Days Later fast moving ones we all know to be ghouls), people are always feinting them, distracting them with quick, random motion and then stepping to the side and cracking their heads open.

So if a character was built around having an ability that made catching undead flat-footed worthwhile, I really wouldn't have a problem house-ruling it so that non-intelligent undead could be feinted. (If a creature didn't have a Wisdom score, then I would say he's non-feintable.)

Another thing, since the Zombie template has a -2 to Dex, if you animated say an elven acrobat with a 20 Dex, his zombie form would be shambling around with an 18 Dex, which is nothing to sneeze at. I don't know what that would look like, maybe similar to a drunken master, seemingly off-balance but always stepping just perfectly over unstable terrain. Or, imagine seeing a zombie shuffle across a tightrope. That's just funny to me.