Fellow player fudging rolls

[pawsplay]

My god - I have no idea why this thread is four pages full of people pussyfooting around offering creative ways to not embarrass this guy who sits there blatantly lying his ass off to everyone else every week at the table. Who gives a damn if he gets embarrassed or offended? He's presumably an adult, and should be able to handle being called out for being a dick at the table. What if you were gaming with someone who routinely sleeved cards during a poker game, or slipped himself an extra $100 every now and then from the bank during a game of Monopoly? Would you call them on it, or wring your hands wondering how to make him stop without being a big meanie about it? Here, here's a handy script to follow to make him stop:

(Steve rolls dice, resulting in a 4)
Steve: All right, an 18!
You: Bull****, that's a 4. Stop cheating.

Repeat as needed.

That could very well work. I think my suggestion is much sneakier, though, since it hints that I know he's cheating. Anxiety is actually a more effective punishment than a predictable consequence. And I think it's worth looking at how to maximize the ways to keep the group together, which is generally not helped by bad feelings. And what if the first time you did this, it just happened to be one time you were wrong? You'd feel pretty stupid, then, I'll bet.

Just going with, "Looks like a 4 to me," is probably a better bet than calling and labeling. It's not pussyfooting, it's just being smart.

 

[kitsune9]

My god - I have no idea why this thread is four pages full of people pussyfooting around offering creative ways to not embarrass this guy who sits there blatantly lying his ass off to everyone else every week at the table. Who gives a damn if he gets embarrassed or offended?

I totally agree; however there is a risk element in a direct confrontation. For example, I've given examples where I dumped one particular group because everyone was cheating back in the 2e days. One of them was my roommate, the others were his personal friends--a husband and wife team who personally were not afraid to respond to any accusation of cheating with a fight. I had been threatened once before by the husband when I wanted to audit his character for the last session.

So, my own choice is that 1) should I call out everyone and deal with four against one two hours away from my home and one hour away from the nearest hospital, or 2) let it ride and just get the heck out of Dodge? #2 was my choice. So, would people call me a coward? Definitely if we were at war for Queen and Country, but this is a game and isn't worth getting punched in the face and suffering from multiple lacerations simply because I wanted to take the moral high ground with neanderthals.

I had the misfortune of getting involved with people who were not hesitant to use violence to get their way and they played rpgs, so it wasn't worth it for me to call them on their cheating. The safest option was to call the evening short, go home and no quit playing with them.

 

[Zhaleskra]

So, my own choice is that 1) should I call out everyone and deal with four against one two hours away from my home and one hour away from the nearest hospital, or 2) let it ride and just get the heck out of Dodge? #2 was my choice. So, would people call me a coward? Definitely if we were at war for Queen and Country, but this is a game and isn't worth getting punched in the face and suffering from multiple lacerations simply because I wanted to take the moral high ground with neanderthals.

Why are you playing with this guy, again?

 

[Haltherrion]

Heh. I like this too, but being that confrontational with this guy would probably be pretty messy.

That's because the other poster related a fairly messy way of handling this It was a pretty confrontational way of resolving such a situation.

Anyway, I was just thinking about suggesting to the GM that he could just have a no laptops on the table rule. People being distracted by the Internet is kind of a problem in the game too, so maybe we could kill two birds with one stone here without being too obvious about the cheating issue.

That might be worth considering for its own sake but it is likely to only cause the player in question to alter his method of fudging rolls. From your own player-satisfaction perspective, it seems it would result in a period of false hope followed by more angst with the problem, i.e., just delay resolution.

I think you need to buckle down and either talk to the ref or talk to the player. The latter is preferred as a starting point. It doesn't have to be a long conversation and it would be useful to gather a little information. That is, record some clear cut cases of fudged rolls and then talk to that person that night, maybe even during a break. You can keep it short and you should cut it off if the player gets defensive or argumentative. But if you go to the ref after having tried to talk to the player, it is a lot cleaner.

If someone is fudging rolls regularly, you can expect them to have rationalized it in their heads already and not be very receptive to your own feedback. They will likely deny it while all the time thinking, hey, it's just a game. But the point is more the process. You will know you gave the player a chance to resolve it before going to the ref, and the ref will also appreciate you tried to keep him or her out of it.

I wouldn't ignore this problem. Seems like it has risen to the level of being quite a bother to you.

 

[Haltherrion]

Sorry dup post.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

At some point, it seems that our society has grown to be non-confrontational

Plenty of people don't like confrontation. It's often part of being a nerd. I know I hate confrontation.

I don't see where the OP was blaming the problem player of having a mental problem either.

 

[Merkuri]

If you accuse someone of doing something they know is wrong, a lot of the time they will get defensive and flat out deny it. This leads to lots of bad emotions for both the accuser and the accused. People can get angry, defensive, and stressed. If you've got people with strong personalities involved it can escalate into shouting or even blows in rare occasions. It can also be awkward and embarrassing for onlookers, if the accusation happens in public.

However, if you can find some subtle way to let the cheater know you know what they are doing you can avoid a lot of these negative emotions and possible escalations. A lot of posters have highlighted good ways of doing this (giving the cheater a look, asking them if they were mistaken about the roll, writing down all of their rolls and joking that you want to use their d20, etc).

In both cases, the cheater feels embarrassed and will be motivated to stop cheating, but one way reduces the total amount of drama, stress, and bad feelings all around.

 

[kitsune9]

Why are you playing with this guy, again?

He made the threat in my last session with this group. I had felt that he was cheating and wanted to audit his character to see how he coming up with his numbers. That's when he got nasty. His wife just blatantly made up rolls she made, a friend who came over cheated because he didn't know better, and my roommate had the habit of rolling the die and as it stopped, he suddenly grabs and tells the result.

I had played games as a player with this group and it wasn't so bad (albeit the adventures were boring and turned me off playing Werewolf) until I took over in the DM's chair which lasted only two or three sessions.

 

[Haltherrion]

OP here. I decided to shoot the GM an e-mail suggesting a rule that we roll out in the open. Plus, I'm going to "show-off" my custom made dice tower at the next session.

Is this non-confrontational? Yeah, but this guy is pretty defensive in addition to being a good friend and a coworker with some of other players. Calling him out and having a big confrontation could have messy consequences in real life terms that wouldn't be worth it.

It's easy and satisfying to suggest calling someone on cheating in front of the entire group as others have on this thread but it just struck me as wrong although I couldn't quite verbalize why at first.

But thinking about it, it's pretty clear. There are two main reasons, in no particular order:

1. It will likely make everyone else at the table uncomfortable. We've become non-confrontational? Perhaps but why do something that is going to really bother a good chunk of folks at the table? They aren't cheating. Maybe you don't care about losing the cheater but you certainly don't want to lose anyone else. This isn't a casino Texas hold'em game where everyone at the table is a foe and you are there for a single purpose. You game for some element of socialization and if it gets uncomfortable, you will lose some players. And why not? Uncomfortable is not good socialization.
2. If you want to retain the player but stop the behavior, publically calling someone out is less likely to succeed than privately dealing with it because in the former case, they are more likely to quit the group entirely.

That's not to say a public call-out can't work in some thicker skinned groups or can't be handled smoothly with some carefully executed sarcasm but I can't begrudge you the OP for wanting to be less confrontational about it.

It's not so different when managing people (which I do for a living). While there are times where it is appropriate to call someone out publically in general in relationships among professionals (probably most analogous to a gaming group), private negative feedback is most effective if your goal is to get someone to change their behavior and remain a productive member of your team.

If you just want to score points and piss them off enough to quit, then by all means slam them in public

 

[wedgeski]

Plenty of people don't like confrontation. It's often part of being a nerd. I know I hate confrontation.

I didn't counsel a table confrontation, but believe me I have no problem with confrontation in general. Sometimes there are just much better ways of dealing with a person than humiliating them in front of their friends.