[FFD20] Let's Mass our Forces, and Rebuild our Power

[Sollir Furryfoot]

I don't think uniformity is necessarily a good idea. For instance, a black mage's 2nd level spells wouldn't necessarily cost as much as a blue mage's 2nd level spells. Some 2nd level spells are more powerful or just plain more useful than others.

However, if you could determine a spell's MP cost through factors, similar to determining the Spellcraft DC of an epic spell, I think that would be a good idea.

In an ideal system, spells that are more powerful or more useful than others in its same level is bumped up to a level where it's more appropriate If a blue mage's spell is powerful for its level, it should be boosted up to where the cost for effect ratio is fair-or to balance it in other ways, such as a longer casting time or material component. A possible exception would be to make it so that certain descriptors, like [Summoning] and possibly include a [Non-Elemental] descriptor which adds a certain amount to the spell.

That being said, I vote for a uniform MP system. With the current die-system, I would suggest 3 MP per spell level -1 (2 for 1st level spells, 5 for 2nd, 8 for 3rd, 11 for 4th, 14 -5th, 17 -6th, 20- 7th, 23-8th, 26-9th).

A 20th level black mage will have 20d12 MP, and assuming he has about a 16 in wis that adds 60 and will be able to cast about 7 of his highest level spells if he decides to use that.

It's cost is just a bit higher than the psions formula (2x spell level -1) because mages in the FF system didn't seem to cast those 9th level spells often. Perhaps even consider raising the cost to 4xspell level -1 if we include items that restore MP in the game.

I would keep Wis as the only stat that adds to MP, since it does that and Will saves and not anything else really in my proposed system (While Int would add to spells known and Cha to DCs). I suggest a feat that increases a spellcaster's MP, maybe by an amount equal to their level or equal to their level/2 (and retroactively increases) each time taken, as well as a feat for HP that's similar to that but stronger than toughness.

I also suggest that almost every class gets a few bonus feats every X levels (my Blue Mage core class right up has some every 4 levels) with their own class lists for bonus feats (including metamagic feats).

I also suggest not having any cantrips, it doesn't fit the FF flavor.

All of this, is, of course, IMO

 

[GnomeWorks]

In an ideal system, spells that are more powerful or more useful than others in its same level is bumped up to a level where it's more appropriate

Given. But take normal DnD spells, for instance - some 1st level spells see far more use than others, but are all 1st level in power. In a more ideal system p), these spells would have slightly different costs - those that are used less often would cost less, and those that were used very often would cost slightly more, but still less than less used 2nd level spells.

If a blue mage's spell is powerful for its level, it should be boosted up to where the cost for effect ratio is fair-or to balance it in other ways, such as a longer casting time or material component.

See above.

A possible exception would be to make it so that certain descriptors, like [Summoning] and possibly include a [Non-Elemental] descriptor which adds a certain amount to the spell.

Those are both sound ideas.

That being said, I vote for a uniform MP system. With the current die-system, I would suggest 3 MP per spell level -1 (2 for 1st level spells, 5 for 2nd, 8 for 3rd, 11 for 4th, 14 -5th, 17 -6th, 20- 7th, 23-8th, 26-9th).

A 20th level black mage will have 20d12 MP, and assuming he has about a 16 in wis that adds 60 and will be able to cast about 7 of his highest level spells if he decides to use that.

It's cost is just a bit higher than the psions formula (2x spell level -1) because mages in the FF system didn't seem to cast those 9th level spells often. Perhaps even consider raising the cost to 4xspell level -1 if we include items that restore MP in the game.

Um. Well, that is relatively accurate, I suppose... Bahamut was 60, Flare was 60 (or 90?), Holy was 60... all pretty expensive, as far as FFT was concerned. However, if you have costs that high, then there should be the Half-MP ability, as well - probably as a feat higher up in a feat chain. So that you can cast those higher-level spells more often, if you need to.

I would keep Wis as the only stat that adds to MP, since it does that and Will saves and not anything else really in my proposed system (While Int would add to spells known and Cha to DCs). I suggest a feat that increases a spellcaster's MP, maybe by an amount equal to their level or equal to their level/2 (and retroactively increases) each time taken, as well as a feat for HP that's similar to that but stronger than toughness.

I like the three mental stats all being used for different things, and I also like the MP- and HP-boosting feat ideas.

I also suggest that almost every class gets a few bonus feats every X levels (my Blue Mage core class right up has some every 4 levels) with their own class lists for bonus feats (including metamagic feats).

Bonus feats with a specific list that is different (or relatively so) for each class sounds good to me.

I also suggest not having any cantrips, it doesn't fit the FF flavor.

/me shrugs.

True. And with the MP die system, and assuming the first die is maxed, a normal mage will have around 8 MPs, assuming no Wisdom mod... which is 4 first level spells. At first level. That large number somewhat eliminates the need for 0th level spells, I suppose.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Not just the need for cantrips, but also most (if not all) of the FF spells weren't weak enough to be 0th-spell level.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Not just the need for cantrips, but also most (if not all) of the FF spells weren't weak enough to be 0th-spell level.

Yep. I tried to come up with an example of an FF spell that would be 0th, without modification - the only one that came to mind was sight from FFIV, and that would be rather broken as a 0th level spell... heck, the one blue spell I've got so far that's 0th level is one that should probably be higher level, but I decided I'd tone it down a bit.

I'll ignore 0th with further blue spells. I'm almost done converting the list into levels and one-liners, so I'll be able to start on actual spell statblocks and which monsters they're learned from relatively soon.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Idea!

I was just looking at the level-based blue spells (Level 2 Old, for instance), and trying to figure out how to make them work in our system...

And then I thought of something!

Level-Dependent [Metamagic]
You can cast a blue spell and make it's effect dependent upon level, thus making it cheaper to use.
Prerequisite: Must be able to cast blue magic.
Benefit: Choose a number of spells equal to your Int mod (if your Int mod is lower than 1, choose 1 spell). You can make each of these blue spells level-dependent. For instance, rather than casting aero, you can cast level 2 aero. Each level increase reduces the spell's MP cost by one. For instance, a level 5 aero costs 5 MP's less than a normal aero spell. You cannot make a spell have a level-dependency of 1.
All creatures with a level that is a multiple of the level-dependent spell's indicated level are affected by the spell, within the spell's normal range. If a creature doesn't have levels, use it's Hit Dice instead; if the creature has both levels and Hit Dice, use it's level.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you do, you choose new spells that you can apply this feat to.

This might be getting into the calculator's arena, but I have a feeling that that is a PrC anyway. I just thought that it would be a good way to include the level-dependent mechanic.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Interesting feat, GW, I like

Just make certain metamagic feats be on the bonus list of feats, and others not. Like maybe only the Time Mage would have Extend, Quicken, and Persistant spell on his list of bonus feats for metamagic feats, while a Black Mage would have Maximize and Empower, and a Geomancer might have Enlarge and/or Widen spell and Sanctum Spell (T&B). The Blue Mage and Calculator could have Level-Dependant on their lists.

Note that this doesn't prohibit other classes from gaining those feats (Black Mage taking Level-Dependant feat), mind you, but it doesn't encourage them either

 

[GnomeWorks]

Interesting feat, GW, I like

Thanks!

Just make certain metamagic feats be on the bonus list of feats, and others not. Like maybe only the Time Mage would have Extend, Quicken, and Persistant spell on his list of bonus feats for metamagic feats, while a Black Mage would have Maximize and Empower, and a Geomancer might have Enlarge and/or Widen spell and Sanctum Spell (T&B). The Blue Mage and Calculator could have Level-Dependant on their lists.

Having only certain metamagic feats on a given spellcasting class's bonus feat list is a good idea.

Note that this doesn't prohibit other classes from gaining those feats (Black Mage taking Level-Dependant feat), mind you, but it doesn't encourage them either

Well... hmm. To be honest, I don't see anyone other than blue mages and calculators having Level-Dependent. It doesn't really fit the flavor... I mean, blue mages have things like Level 3 Flare without having Flare on their lists, but have you ever seen a black mage's spell list have Level 4 Frog, or something else along those lines?

 

[Jeff_M_Stone]

thanks for the welcome CS
I may have missed this, but did we figure out how the Blue mage learns blue magic?

 

[GnomeWorks]

I may have missed this, but did we figure out how the Blue mage learns blue magic?

Well, Sollir and I have been going with two things...

1) The standard way, ie getting hit with it. You have to make a skill check to learn it, though; but the DC isn't very high.

2) Observation. You can learn a blue spell by observing it being done, but the skill check is more difficult.

Used together, it's not too bad of a system, imo.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Well, with my class I made it as a Will save, though I'm not sure if I should change that or not. Getting hit with it might be under observation, but so far I haven't planned on using it, really.

Observation is the standard way of doing it, it requires a standard action within a certain range of the monster (haven't decided yet, probably close range equivilant), and if the monster uses an Su ability, you make a Will save (DC=DC of used ability, or if no DC 10+1/2 monster HD+mosnter's cha mod)-if you're successful, you gain the ability on your abilities known list, although there's a maximum amount of abilitiesk nown you can have.

The second way of doing it I took from FFX, and entitled an ability named Lancelet. Lancelet can only be used a certain # of times per day, depending on your level, but what you can basically do is "mark" a monster by making a ranged touch attack against it. If it uses any Su abilities for the next 1 round/Blue Mage level, you get a chance, as above, to learn it-or, if you're observing it at the same time it's marked, you get a +4 bonus on your Will save.

Finally, at 10th level of the PrC version of the class, or 18th level of the core class version, you get Constant Observation (need to think of a better name, perhaps), which basically means you automatically observe all the monsters within a certain radius (I'm thinking 5 ft. per level), without taking an action, although you receive a -4 penalty to your Will save when doing this.

Edit-In both ways, you get a +1 cumulative bonus to your Will save for observing/lanceletting each time the ability is used in an encounter, and you haven't learned it.

Just some food for thought