Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss - Web Enhancement

[Shade]

I get the idea that most of ENWorld doesn't play D&D any more, but just views the books as reading material. That's not wrong, but it does change their priorities. Usefulness can take a back seat to more purely academic issues; how many angels can fit on the head of a pin can become of paramount importance, since the issue of pinhead angels not coming up during play isn't an issue to them.

As someone running an epic-level campaign, one which heavily uses the lower planes, this material would definitely not be relegated to simply "reading material" for me.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

As someone running an epic-level campaign, one which heavily uses the lower planes, this material would definitely not be relegated to simply "reading material" for me.

You're not part of the "most" then.

 

[Shade]

You're not part of the "most" then.

No argument there...just showing that not everyone who wants this stuff is just a "reader".

That said, I'd prefer the web enhancement have the cut planar descriptions, as that is even more useful. I can wait for the true stats in future Demonomicons.

 

[catsclaw227]

This, is a touch silly, in the context of 3.5.
Aspects (of gods one feels compelled to note) are in the low teens. Why would CRs of demon-aspects need to be vastly more powerful?

My point is.... Erik or James in one of the other threads stated that the stats in the book were intended to represent the demons outside their plane, yet it may have not made it into the book. A lot of the hubbub is because the stats presented appeared to some to be too low.

If the web enhancement or errata would clarify the situation, it might ease some of the people for whom this is an issue. (of which I am not.)

 

[JustaPlayer]

Hey, you want to make some major unique demons of CR19-CR23 for end games, fine. My problem is when you start calling such weaklings Orcus, Demogorgon and such.

 

[catsclaw227]

Hey, you want to make some major unique demons of CR19-CR23 for end games, fine. My problem is when you start calling such weaklings Orcus, Demogorgon and such.

Hmmm. I guess this is where our play/gm style differs. I would never in my right mind consider a CR19-CR23 creature a weakling.

 

[JustaPlayer]

Hmmm. I guess this is where our play/gm style differs. I would never in my right mind consider a CR19-CR23 creature a weakling.

At this point I haven't played a game at that power level, but why would you want to kill one of these guys as a campaign ending event when you have an great wrym red dragon over the rise? After all, the dragon is the bigger threat.

 

[catsclaw227]

At this point I haven't played a game at that power level, but why would you want to kill one of these guys as a campaign ending event when you have an great wrym red dragon over the rise? After all, the dragon is the bigger threat.

It depends upon the campaign arc or the story line. Personally, I will be using the Dragon versions of the Demon Princes, but for many here CR20 is a great ending for a campaign, and not all of them have a Great Wyrm over the rise.

 

[The Serge]

Dicefreaks already has more epic versions of the demon lords and princes. In my signature, we have the (out of date, but usable) preliminary stats for a number of demons, including Demogorgon, Orcus, and Graz'zt. These are designed with the use of divine and epic rules with CRs in the 70s in some cases. There's also The Gates of Hell which features a more comprehensive, cosmological look at Hell and its devils.

Kain Darkwind's Alternate Cosmic Entities features a variety of planar lords (and a few gods I think) that are designed in a manner in keeping with the BoVD (Demogorgon has 70 HD... 10 more than a fully advanced balor and Asmodeus has 54, equal to a fully advanced pit fiend). The highest CR is in the 50s.

In essence, there are options out there for more... evocative arch-fiends as flavor is given as much play as stats. Even if WotC is going a different direction by not recognizing that there are plenty of people that play epic rules and that there are potentially more that would if there was so-called "official" support, there are plenty independent designers offering free, well-crafted material to promote and fulfill the need.

 

[Shemeska]

I get the idea that most of ENWorld doesn't play D&D any more, but just views the books as reading material. That's not wrong, but it does change their priorities. Usefulness can take a back seat to more purely academic issues; how many angels can fit on the head of a pin can become of paramount importance, since the issue of pinhead angels not coming up during play isn't an issue to them.

I ran my last planar campaign into the 30s, and my current one is around 17 right now and will be going past 21 well into Epic levels.

But just out of curiousity, where do you get the notion that most or even a large number of people on Enworld don't play DnD but just like to read the books? And though you don't say it, you seem to imply this especially about those of us who like to pick at academic but totally awesome stuff like planar history and such or just don't want to see archfiends as random boss monsters at the end of a dungeon level.

I'm not offended or anything, but really I'm curious where the notion comes from. It certainly doesn't apply to me.

Start a non-scientific poll to judge the truth about the opinions of a self-selected group of gamers who may or may not be representative of the DnD market as a whole! That'll give us an answer! *grins* But seriously, run the poll, I'm curious now. I'd suggest the 'read but don't play' is about 20% at most, but I might be wrong.