Fiendish Codex II next month--Any scoop/rumors/etc.?

[rjs]

Hey hey, have a little faith kids I just received the book and I gave it a good long look. I wrote half of it (nearly all the crunch), so I'm naturally biased, but I'm really, really pleased. Robin did really good work on the nature of the devils, the layers, and he nailed the tone. Now I say this knowing that I could never please everyone, but I think you'll be happy with the result. My tongue is still clamped to my desk, so I can't say much, but I hope you give this a look before you draw too many conclusions. And if not, I guess I'll just have to sacrifice yet another baby vegetable on my altar of evil...

 

[Ripzerai]

I don't generally like the Judeo Christian influence on D&D as D&D is polytheistic (churches shaped like crosses never made sense to me in D&D for example), but I like the concept of fallen celestials quite a bit.

I like fallen celestials too, but Hell already has one - Baalzebul, who was formally the archon Triel. Green Ronin's material made Belial and Moloch fallen celestials too, which makes sense as the three are allies.

Doing that to Asmodeus, the most enigmatic and shadowy or the lords, presumedly above the native vs. fallen celestial squabble the lesser members of the Nine are obsessed with, is a step too far, in my opinion. It's fine as a rumor, but making it an objective fact, and the basis for his flavor, destroys what was interesting about the character.

I haven't written the book off entirely yet, and I might well purchase it. I'm okay with retcons when I happen to like them, but the few I've seen hinted at so far (severely nerfing the Dark Eight and Asmodeus both) have really turned me off.

If the lesser-known diabolic nobles are presented in such a way as to make them very interesting, that could make up for the nerfing of Asmodeus and the Eight (who I can always return to their previous glory myself).

I do like how the Blood War was handled in the excerpt in general. It seems to be better than, yet complementary to, the section on the war in Fiendish Codex I. I like that they made it a very big deal, stressed that the nobles are mostly above it, and still tied it firmly into the still-ongoing greater conflict between Chaos and Law. FC1, in contrast, nerfed both the Blood War and the modern Law-Chaos conflict.

 

[Zaukrie]

That could be true. I'm not sure how much it matters to any game I will ever run, however, where Asmodeus came from, when I really think about it.

I do think that how they handle the Blood War could have an effect. I really, really enjoyed FCI, and if FCII approaches that I'll be thrilled.

I greatly enjoyed the work by Green Ronin in this area - I really need to find the 3.5 version.

 

[Ripzerai]

On second thought, I think I'm missing the bigger picture here. The salient point in the preview isn't that Asmodeus is a fallen celestial or a big snake or whatever, but that he's a communist who led a revolution of the proletariat against the bourgeoisie. It happens that they decided that the bourgeoisie was the celestials, but it could just as easily be the Ancient Baatorians or another snake.

This might actually be an interesting approach.

 

[Nightfall]

Rob,

Don't worry about sacrifices. I'll do it for you. I owe you that for some the great books you did as well as the first in the Bleeding Edge line for GR. (And Thieves World. Loved, loved, LOVED Thieves World. ) Like I said before I just want the good fluff...and I think you and Robin will do that just fine.

 

[The Serge]

While I plan on buying this book (it is, after all, about devils), I am already having some misgivings based upon the excerpts posted at WotC.

As rip already mentioned, the retcon with the Dark Eight (or, perhaps there will be a story element to explain the change) is dull. There was more dramatic tension with having the Dark Eight essentially autonomous (answering only to Asmodeus, and then only occasionally) with Bel's responsibilities to the Blood War based upon his location (as the Lord of Avernus) and his own past (which may still force him to serve the Dark Eight's plans).

Additionally, the implication that Asmodeus may be a fallen celestial of some type is not particularly original if we still have Baalzebul as a fallen archon.

As for the stats, historically demons were mechanically stronger than devils. If you compare the stats of the arch-devils in MMI with the demon princes in the same text, you'll find that Demogorgon is physically mightier than Asmodeus. If you compare most of the "common fiends" in the Planescape, you'll find that demons are the strongest, yugoloths fill in the middle, and devils are the weakest. Things were blurry with the "lordly" types; many of the abyssal lords were lesser gods while the Lords of the Nine weren't clearly gods, but did generate avatars (according to DRAGON Magazine 223) that paralleled the powers of avatars generated by greater gods. It wasn't until 3ed that we started to see a bit of reverse with the power levels with pit fiends clearly capable of taking down a balor 65% of the time (and with ultroloths relegated, idiotically, to being no match for either head CE or LE fiend).

I honestly have no idea what they're going to do with the stats in FCII. If they go the route parallel to FCI, we run into even more significant problems than that book in that there is no real spread of power beyond the pit fiend and before Bel (assuming he's still the weakest of the Nine) in which to fill your Dukes of Hell (assuming they still have them). I have to agree with Shemeska: the best option would have been to suggest that the stats in FCI (and if they're of similar design philosophy, those in FCII) are for avatars/aspects (I'd make the sidebar for advancement as the alternative for those that want those, or similar, stats as the option/variant).

If we go another route and they're similar in power to those in BoVD (which still doesn't really please me), hopefully they'll take advantage of real epic rules... This would put them roughly on par with the demon princes and demon lords in DRAGON.

In any event, yes, I suspect that we'll have very similar debates to those we had with FCI once again.

 

[The Serge]

On second thought, I think I'm missing the bigger picture here. The salient point in the preview isn't that Asmodeus is a fallen celestial or a big snake or whatever, but that he's a communist who led a revolution of the proletariat against the bourgeoisie. It happens that they decided that the bourgeoisie was the celestials, but it could just as easily be the Ancient Baatorians or another snake.

This might actually be an interesting approach.

This crossed my mind when I read it, but I doubt it largely because of the reference to "masters of the celestial sphere." It sounds more like they've taken some of the traditions related to Abaddon/Apollyon (and others) that he was placed in Hell to oversee the devils/ancient Baatorians and that he became corrupted. This doesn't mean, however, that he was a celestial... He may have been a big snake or whatever, but the clear "masters" statement is what gets my attention.

 

[BOZ]

Considering how much I liked T&A

oh, i like T&A, too. oh wait, you meant A&T...

 

[BOZ]

On second thought, I think I'm missing the bigger picture here. The salient point in the preview isn't that Asmodeus is a fallen celestial or a big snake or whatever, but that he's a communist who led a revolution of the proletariat against the bourgeoisie. It happens that they decided that the bourgeoisie was the celestials, but it could just as easily be the Ancient Baatorians or another snake.

This might actually be an interesting approach.

actually... that is.

 

[Nightfall]

Well it certainly beats him being a whiney hippie with no social agenda.

Serge,

Hey if you don't like it, you and the guys at Dicefreaks have your own Hellish things to play with.