Fiendish Codex II Web Enhancement

[Aaron L]

Ok, if they're going to continue with the use of Aspects so that lower level characters can fight them, then why do they also insist on continuing to make the actual stats of the Demon and Devil lords be so ridiculously weak?


Aspects are a fine idea, but since we have them, I want mind blowingly powerful "true" versions of the lower planar lords.

 

[Shroomy]

The stats for the arch-devils in FCII are explicitly stated to be aspects, and both FCI and FCII give you fairly easy rules to create more powerful versions of the arch-fiends.

 

[BOZ]

Maybe...

cool!

did you notice this thread or this thread?

 

[Pants]

Ok, if they're going to continue with the use of Aspects so that lower level characters can fight them, then why do they also insist on continuing to make the actual stats of the Demon and Devil lords be so ridiculously weak?

So that they're usable. As an aside, the Archfiend stats in FCII are only really, really 'powerful' aspects, which further cements the idea that 'these folks are as powerful dangerous as you want them to be' angle semi-started in FCI.

Aspects are a fine idea, but since we have them, I want mind blowingly powerful "true" versions of the lower planar lords.

Why stat them at all then if they're going to be so super powerful as to be unusable?

 

[paradox42]

So that they're usable. As an aside, the Archfiend stats in FCII are only really, really 'powerful' aspects, which further cements the idea that 'these folks are as powerful dangerous as you want them to be' angle semi-started in FCI.

Why stat them at all then if they're going to be so super powerful as to be unusable?

Mind-blowingly powerful entities are usable in the right campaign. My own Epic game has reached 32nd level, so any creatures below CR 32 are basically pushovers to my party. Note that this includes not only the FCI and FCII 'lords' (as far as official stats go at least), but also the versions that appeared in BoVD- as well as all the Great Wyrm dragons of the core rules, all the non-Lord demons and devils, etc.

Do not make blanket statements about vaguely defined terms such as 'usability' without explicit clarifications to state how you are using the terms in question. Doing otherwise will just make your post immediately wrong by counterexample.

 

[Pants]

Mind-blowingly powerful entities are usable in the right campaign. My own Epic game has reached 32nd level, so any creatures below CR 32 are basically pushovers to my party. Note that this includes not only the FCI and FCII 'lords' (as far as official stats go at least), but also the versions that appeared in BoVD- as well as all the Great Wyrm dragons of the core rules, all the non-Lord demons and devils, etc.

Do not make blanket statements about vaguely defined terms such as 'usability' without explicit clarifications to state how you are using the terms in question. Doing otherwise will just make your post immediately wrong by counterexample.

But, comparatively speaking, how many people play campaigns up to 32nd level? I know that people out there do, but how many?

Also note that the rules allow you to advance the archfiends up to your preferred level and they even say 'hey, if you want 'em more powerful, here's some tools to do it.' It's much, much easier to upgrade creatures than it is to downgrade them, hence why the baseline is provided as being low rather than being super high.

EDIT: I should've said 'usable for the largest number of people' rather than unusable in my previous post. My bad, I meant the former

 

[Ripzerai]

FC2 killed this argument dead with the sentence that said the stats there weren't intended as their "actual stats."

By implication, the FC1 stats are aspects, too.

Amazing what a single sentence can do.

 

[Pants]

Amazing what a single sentence can do.

yep.

Thank you FC2!

 

[Aaron L]

So that they're usable. As an aside, the Archfiend stats in FCII are only really, really 'powerful' aspects, which further cements the idea that 'these folks are as powerful dangerous as you want them to be' angle semi-started in FCI.


Why stat them at all then if they're going to be so super powerful as to be unusable?

Well then good good, that's great that they're made out to be extra powerful aspects That sits right and makes things cool with me.


And the reason to make them super powerful is to maintain at least a tiny semblance of verisimilitude in the shared reality of D&D. When Great Wyrm Dragons are more powerful than many of the supposed rulers of entire planes of reality, then why hasn't the entire AByss been taken over by a cadre of Great Wyrn Reds a long, long time ago?

Not to mention that the stock standard (least powerful) Balors as statted out in the MM are more powerful than some of the Demon Lords they are supposed to serve (wasn't Juiblex CR 19 or something ridiculous like that?!)

It turns the concept of Demon Lord and Duke of Hell into a bad joke, and It throws the entire power structure of the cosmology of D&D completely out of whack.


But if they're saying the listed low 20's Challenge Ratings of the fiend lords are just powerful aspects, then that's cool with me. But I'd still like to see stats that actually vindicates their positions as rulers through sheer power over Balors and Myrmixicus and Molydeus, because I do happen to run games that go high enough for them to be usable.

 

[hong]

And the reason to make them super powerful is to maintain at least a tiny semblance of verisimilitude in the shared reality of D&D. When Great Wyrm Dragons are more powerful than many of the supposed rulers of entire planes of reality, then why hasn't the entire AByss been taken over by a cadre of Great Wyrn Reds a long, long time ago?

I reject the consensus reality of D&D. I am a FREE MAN!