Fiendish Codex II Web Enhancement

[Ripzerai]

Even if we assume the stats are for mere aspects, the entirety of the lords realm is set up to accomodate the notion that the CR 20 (or whatever) Prince is the defacto ruler.

So FCII's babbling is akin to a Balor using nothing but Dretches and Rutterkin to defend its fortress. Theres no middle ground/ranks.

The book mentions numerous nobles in every layer (and FC1 does the same). How do these not count as "middle ranks?"

 

[James Jacobs]

I'm glad they made the archdevils aspects; it's as it should be. It was certainly the intention for the demon lords in FC1, and it's cool that it's stated more clearly in FC2.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

To be fair, if Wizards had released the book with your modifications, I wouldn't be crying into my pillow. (Though I do think talking about the "lowest common denominator" is a little terse language-wise, I think your general point stans.)

I meant lowest common denominator as in the lowest level (and therein greatest amount of gamers), it was not a slur on anyone's gaming preference. I respect gaming and gamers of any level.

The problem is book size, at the end of the day - you got to make what space you have rock the most for the most people.

They could easily have cut some of the updated monsters that already featured in other books and done them as a web enhancement.

Stat blocks in the same style as the rest of the book for advanced Demon Princes would chew up quite a lot of text

As I explained, only one or two examples would be necessary if you have a solid framework of showing how you get from A to B to C and back again.

- and are arguably only worth it if they're going to be truly huge (as the Demonomicon articles already cover slightly more powerful figures)

Superior, certainly, but still fairly feeble compared to what makes the most sense.

at which point we get back to the "who is it for?" question.

Epic gamers and those who want to see some sort of planar verisimilitude.

The amount of players who who use a CR 45 Juiblex is pretty slim, whereas that page space could be used for rules or fluff that more people will get mileage out of.

True, but then you have to ask, why print ANY demon prince stats at all? If more people can use CR 1-10 monsters just make the whole book CR 1-10 monsters!?

The same goes for army sizes, extra encounter tables etc - it's all a big footprint when you don't necesarilly get as much as other stuff that could go on that space.

I think that stuff would be useful, interesting and insightful at any level of play.

Overall, I think the Fiendish Codex books make a good balance.

Maybe I am missing something? What balance do they strike? Between what and what?

You may want to do things another way, of course, but the books at least offer some support for that. With class levels, HD advancing and templates, there's no reason why you can't have as many badical Demon Princes, Balors and what-not to torment your ECL 40 PCs who are finally braving the inner depths of the Abyss. ;-)

But the problem is that there is no rhyme or reason in this case.

Adding 5% epic material is a sure fire way to get epic gamers interested in buying a book. Would this dissuade non-epic gamers from buying the book, I don't think so...though no doubt there are probably some such bitter individuals out there. Of course everyone wants as much of each book to cater to themselves as possible, but there has to be some give and take.

 

[James Jacobs]

While there are 'advancement' rules in FCI, there are a totally blank slate with no actual guidelines to aim for. Simply saying Asmodeus is as powerful as you want to make him is all well and good, but it totally derails any sense of individuality.

That's not entirely true. I've been doing Demonomicon articles in Dragon magazine for a few years now that do preciesly that; present demon lords at higher CR scores (generally ranging from 24 to 30 or higher); FC1 was designed with these articles in mind, and the two complement each other really well.

As for examples on how to integrate plots like "invade the demon lord's realm" while at the same time preserving their high power abilities, one need look no further than the last four instalments of the Savage Tide Adventure Path we're doing in Dungeon right now.

What FC1 REALLY needed was to be a bigger book. Another 96 pages would have been nice. Of course... Erik and I would have been even later on our turnovers if that were the case, so I guess there's something to be said for shorter books...

 

[Piratecat]

I'm glad they made the archdevils aspects; it's as it should be. It was certainly the intention for the demon lords in FC1, and it's cool that it's stated more clearly in FC2.

I'm glad that you survived your cannibalistic coworkers long enough to remind us of this.

 

[James Jacobs]

I'm glad that you survived your cannibalistic coworkers long enough to remind us of this.

They WERE rather delicious.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey James!

That's not entirely true. I've been doing Demonomicon articles in Dragon magazine for a few years now that do preciesly that; present demon lords at higher CR scores (generally ranging from 24 to 30 or higher); FC1 was designed with these articles in mind, and the two complement each other really well.

I agree, and let me be the first to say I love the Demonomicon articles, best Dragon magazine articles ever - and I have been reading Dragon for 20 years.

However, I don't see that step up in power (from FC to Demonomicon) to be significant. 4-5 extra challenge rating doesn't make the same difference at epic levels.

As for examples on how to integrate plots like "invade the demon lord's realm" while at the same time preserving their high power abilities, one need look no further than the last four instalments of the Savage Tide Adventure Path we're doing in Dungeon right now.

So, out of curiousity, what level is the final Savage Tide adventure for?

What FC1 REALLY needed was to be a bigger book. Another 96 pages would have been nice. Of course... Erik and I would have been even later on our turnovers if that were the case, so I guess there's something to be said for shorter books...

Believe me when I say I know exactly what you mean.

 

[James Jacobs]

First off; thanks for the compliment! The Demonomicon articles are probably my favorite things I've written for Dragon (except maybe the "Not for the Living" article, or maybe that old Kaiju template), and it's nice to hear that other folk like them too!

Well, I personally feel that the CR system breaks down once it hits 20. At that point, combats become increasingly about random die rolls as PCs or monsters roll 1s for saving throws or whatever. My personal preference for power level is to peg the demon lords where I've pegged them for the articles. Once you hit CR 35 or 45 or 60 things just start to feel really arbitrary and they lose their impact. What's the big deal with a CR 60 monster when you can just as well make a CR 70 monster? Once creatures reach that level of power, I think it's better to just treat them as boxed text or scripted events, really. That's pretty much my personal take on it, anyway.

The PCs are probably going to hit 21st level by the end of Savage Tide. The adventure assumes you're 20th level going in, in any event. It and the previous few adventures are all about preparing for the final encounter and whittling down the enemy's defenses, so that when you confront the Big Bad End Guy you aren't facing a CR 32 version of him.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey James!

First off; thanks for the compliment! The Demonomicon articles are probably my favorite things I've written for Dragon (except maybe the "Not for the Living" article, or maybe that old Kaiju template), and it's nice to hear that other folk like them too!

The Kaiju article was good.

Well, I personally feel that the CR system breaks down once it hits 20.

I agree. Which is why I actually revised the Challenge Rating system in the Grim Tales (Bad Axe Games) book to fix the flaws of the official system.

At that point, combats become increasingly about random die rolls as PCs or monsters roll 1s for saving throws or whatever.

In my experience such levels of play are more interesting (although you need to whittle certain rules down a bit) and compelling (because there is more at stake). Admittedly there is a russian roulette style to saving throws but I always found that part of the charm.

My personal preference for power level is to peg the demon lords where I've pegged them for the articles.

Bah, mere lapdogs of the deities at that power level.

Once you hit CR 35 or 45 or 60 things just start to feel really arbitrary and they lose their impact.

Thats only because the epic rulebook was somewhat lacklustre.

What's the big deal with a CR 60 monster when you can just as well make a CR 70 monster? Once creatures reach that level of power, I think it's better to just treat them as boxed text or scripted events, really. That's pretty much my personal take on it, anyway.

I should send you a complimentary copy of the Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary and open those jaded eyes of yours. If the Neutronium Golem doesn't raise a smile I can't think what will.

The PCs are probably going to hit 21st level by the end of Savage Tide. The adventure assumes you're 20th level going in, in any event. It and the previous few adventures are all about preparing for the final encounter and whittling down the enemy's defenses, so that when you confront the Big Bad End Guy you aren't facing a CR 32 version of him.

Ah, so its a case of bringing the mountain to mohammed.

 

[James Jacobs]

While epic-level adventures are certainly fun to read (and a LOT more work to develop and edit), the problem is that there's so much complexity at that level of the game that, if your game group's not composed of patient rules lawyers, things break down quickly; either because the not-so-patient types get distracted and start surfing you-tube, or because the not-so-rules-savvy players end up getting their characters ruined each round of combat.

All of which helps to make non-epic adventrues more popular.

If I were told to "Make epic rules," one of my main design philosophies would be to upgrade and replace rather than invent new stuff. As in, your character's new abilities would be more powerful, but they'd replace the less powerful stuff. Having 80 spell levels and 20 feats that won't work anyway against the monsters your facing is just needless clutter.

And I think this thread has officially been derailed. Thank you! Thank you! <bows>