Fiendish Vermin

[Thanee]

When the fiendish creature template is applied to a vermin creature (i.e. Fiendish Monstrous Scorpion, from Summon Monster), the creature type changes to magical beast.

This means, it's no longer a vermin and the vermin traits no longer apply, right?

It gains an Int score of 3 and is no longer mindless.

It now has skill points and feats as normal.

How do you decide those? Can the summoner simply choose them?

Bye
Thanee

 

[FrostedMini1337]

I do not think they become un-mindless. It says they become magical, but otherwise the type remains unchanged. It's debateable wether they mean otherwise (if it's any other creature), or otherwise (in referring to anything else to do with Vermin).

Also, there is no clear cut rule for how to handle skills and feats for summoned junk (A party member researched a feat to give him summoned stuff more Int, and whatnot) and we found nothing in any 3.0 or 3.5 book. Houseruled a Knowledge the Planes check to change them, otherwise it's DM discretion.

 

[Thanee]

Well, the 'otherwise' part quite clearly means other creature types but animal and vermin, I think.

And since mindless is a vermin trait, it loses that when the type changes. When it gains an Int score (it must do so per the template description) it cannot be mindless anymore either.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Vorput]

I've always allowe characters to gen their summoned creatures.... within reason.

I mean, they can summon ANY fiendish centipede... surely one of them has power attack.

Or weapon focus (bite), whatever.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I asked this exact same question a while ago.

One thing I'm sure about is that the fiendish vermin do not get skills.

 

[Thanee]

Heh.

Why no skills?

Bye
Thanee

 

[FrostedMini1337]

I'm assuming because you don't get skills for boosting you Int normally.

If you become something that boosts you int, you don't get retroactive skill points, so why would they, is the logic I see.

I think it comes down to, were they born fiendish or made fiendish later kinda thing.

 

[frankthedm]

This means, it's no longer a vermin and the vermin traits no longer apply, right?

wrong. They keep those unless the template says otherwise. The traits are listed as special qualities so those are kept unless the template notes otherwise. The Alignment switch is one of those changes.

It gains an Int score of 3 and is no longer mindless.

It still is mindless. Picture how that conundrum works however you wish. I picture it a a hive mind Int dedicated to Evil.

It now has skill points and feats as normal.

Nope. A base critter that gets boned on skills and feats remains boned with the feindish template.

How do you decide those? Can the summoner simply choose them?

Nope. Closest thing to that is the summoning specific critters varient.


Vermin Traits: Vermin possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

—Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

—Darkvision out to 60 feet.

—Alignment: Always neutral. Vermin are not governed by a human sense of morality.

—Treasure: Vermin generally possess no treasure. For those that do, this treasure consists of possessions formerly owned by a creature that the monster has killed.

 

[Thanee]

I think it comes down to, were they born fiendish or made fiendish later kinda thing.

Yeah, I'm generally assuming the first here.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

wrong. They keep those unless the template says otherwise.

When they are no longer vermin, why would they keep the vermin traits?

Bye
Thanee