Fiendish Vermin

[Thanee]

Yep. That's pretty much the reason. It doesn't have any skills or feats because it has no Int score (is mindless). When it gains one, it should also gain skills and feats now.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Yep. That's pretty much the reason. It doesn't have any skills or feats because it has no Int score (is mindless). When it gains one, it should also gain skills and feats now.

Bye
Thanee

This is especially true if you follow the "created fiendish" not "made fiendish" line of thinking. To me, it seems pretty silly to think that somewhere out there are a bunch of scorpions and when one is summoned those scorpions "poof" and change into a fiendish scorpion when required! I agree that it makes much more sense to think of it as there being scorpions and fiendish scorpions both out there. If that's the case, then those fiendish scorpions are born that way. If they are born that way, then they never did have an INT of zero ... ever. So if they never had INT zero, then they should get feats. But then again, following this logic then they should also get skills. [Which has been pointed out that they don't]

Personally, I think the rule should be something like this:

[B]Application of a Template:[/B]
When a template is applied, there are two possibilities.  Some spells or 
special qualities can allow a template to be applied temporarily.  In this 
case, do not recalculate feats, skills, etc.  However, if the template is 
being applied to a being/monster in which the template is a permanent 
part of what they are [I.E. Fiendish/Celestial from birth, etc] then 
feats/skills should be recalculated.

The only problem with this is that it would immediately need to be modified due to the biggest acquired template out there: lycanthropy.

But after thinking about it, I would see no balance issue with recalculating feats and skills in this example (And yes I know the skills part is against the stated rule). Yes, it might make the encounter a bit more difficult, but, not unbalanced.

 

[Infiniti2000]

So, looked at this way, you do not recalculate skill points because of type change; you do recalculate skill points and feats because of Intelligence change.

No. You do not recalculate skill points because the inherited template tells you not to. Quite honestly, I just don't understand how you can interpret "Do not recalculate...skill points" any differently than plain not recalculating skill points.

 

[Thanee]

But you don't recalculate them, you calculate them for the first time.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Infiniti2000]

But you don't recalculate them, you calculate them for the first time.

If that's true (even though I think you jest), then the same principle works for hit dice, BAB, and saves. That's the thing about inherited templates. Those (former) vermin will become much stronger with BAB=HD, d10 HD, and with good reflex saves.

 

[Thanee]

If that's true (even though I think you jest), ...

How did you come to that conclusion!?

Well... ok... somewhat... it's half-jest and half-viable thought.

...then the same principle works for hit dice, BAB, and saves. That's the thing about inherited templates. Those (former) vermin will become much stronger with BAB=HD, d10 HD, and with good reflex saves.

No. You have calculated HD, BAB, and saves already (mindless vermin got those), but not skill points (mindless vermin don't get those).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Infiniti2000]

No. You have calculated HD, BAB, and saves already (mindless vermin got those), but not skill points (mindless vermin don't get those).

It's not a mindless vermin, though, based on your view of it being created as-is. It's a magical beast.

Magical Beasts get d10 HD, BAB=HD, and good fort/ref saves.

If you 'create' the vermin first, such that things need to be recalculated, then the whole vermin, mindless int and all, gets 'created' first. You can't selectively choose what part of the creature exists before the template is applied. You can't say that the HD exist, but that the mind doesn't.

 

[Thanee]

Why not? It has no skill points, being mindless, so this part of the base creature is not calculated, when it is created. Why can't this (<- applying the template) not be seen as the first actual calculation of skill points?

The recalculation is purely mechanical, it doesn't matter, whether the creature never has been a mindless vermin, it's a step in the creation process to first create the base creature and then apply the template.

Bye
Thanee

 

[frankthedm]

Quite honestly, I just don't understand how you can interpret "Do not recalculate...skill points" any differently than plain not recalculating skill points.

It looked to me the OP is trying to squeeze more out the summon monster spells.

It now has skill points and feats as normal.

How do you decide those? Can the summoner simply choose them?

If the DM goes with your suggestion, the DM would assign the skills at cross class cost to the skills the DM felt appropriate for the creature and then the DM would select feats appropriate for the creature such as Iron will and Alertness along with other feats that are used in Animal and dire animal listings to shore up holes in their capabilities. The DM should also look at the vermin’s stat blocks looking for the “built in feats” and make the critter ‘honest’ by assigning that actual feat since it had the benefit already; Racial bonuses to skills get dropped 3 point and skill focus is assigned, racial bonuses to poison DC’s that are dropped 2 points and it takes ability focus poison and Improved natural attack on the giant stag beetle since it already has it with that 4d6 bite!.

Most vermin got their feats already.