Fiendish Vermin

[Knight Otu]

When they are no longer vermin, why would they keep the vermin traits?

Bye
Thanee

They don't. I'm pretty sure Frank is wrong on a few counts.

Size and Type: Templates often change a creature’s type, and may change the creature’s size.

If a template changes the base creature’s type, the creature also acquires the augmented subtype unless the template description indicates otherwise. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type.

http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/improvingMonsters.html
They now have magical beast traits, but keep the vermin features (hit die stuff).

Vermin Type: This type includes insects, arachnids, other arthropods, worms, and similar invertebrates.
Features: Vermin have the following features.
*8-sided Hit Dice.
*Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric).
*Good Fortitude saves.
*Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the vermin has an Intelligence score. However, most vermin are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.
Traits: Vermin possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
*Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
*Darkvision out to 60 feet.
*Proficient with their natural weapons only.
*Proficient with no armor.
*Vermin breathe, eat, and sleep.

http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monsterTypes.html
Mindlessness is a Vermin trait, so they lose it.

Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as “Same as the base creature.”
...
Abilities: If a template changes one or more ability scores, these changes are noted here.
Skills: As with attacks, changing a monster’s type does not always change its skill points. Most templates don’t change the number of Hit Dice a creature has, so you don’t need to adjust skills in that case unless the key abilities for those skills have changed, or the template gives a bonus on one or more skills, or unless the template gives a feat that provides a bonus on a skill check.
Some templates change how skill points are determined, but this change usually only affects skill points gained after the template is applied. Treat skills listed in the base creature’s description as class skills, as well as any new skills provided by the template.
Feats: Since most templates do not change the number of Hit Dice a creature has, a template will not change the number of feats the creature has. Some templates grant one or more bonus feats.

http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/improvingMonsters.html
The fiendish template makes no mention about skills and feats. Normally, it would make sense that a creature that gains Intelligence also gains feats and skills, but there seems no mention about that anywhere. A strict reading would say that fiendish vermin do not gain feats and skills, but I'd encourage talking to the DM to assign fitting skills and feats before the fact.

 

[Thanee]

The fiendish template makes no mention about skills and feats. Normally, it would make sense that a creature that gains Intelligence also gains feats and skills, but there seems no mention about that anywhere. A strict reading would say that fiendish vermin do not gain feats and skills, but I'd encourage talking to the DM to assign fitting skills and feats before the fact.

They don't gain them, they just have them.

It's not a scorpion, that suddenly becomes aware, it's a scorpion that always was like that, it's a new race, so to say.

Every creature gains skill points and feats according to its HD/lvl, unless something prevents it from doing so. It doesn't need to specifically point that out.

That's how I figured that part, anyways.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Infiniti2000]

The fiendish template makes no mention about skills ...

Not true. As I pointed out in the linked thread, the fiendish template says: "Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its type changes." So, even though the vermin becomes a magical beast, it's skill points do not change; i.e. they remain zero. It says nothing about feats, however. According to the response from WotC, they should be assigned, but I'd lean towards the idea that the word "feats" was inadvertently left out of the above quote of "do not recalculate."

I think it comes down to, were they born fiendish or made fiendish later kinda thing.

There's no question they were 'born' fiendish because it's an inherited template. Whether such a creature is truly 'born' or made is purely descriptive on the DM's part. The creature does not ever exist without the template, however.

 

[Thanee]

"Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its type changes."

Ah, missed that part, too. That answers at least half of the question, yeah.

Bye
Thanee

 

[frankthedm]

They don't. I'm pretty sure Frank is wrong on a few counts.

The fiendish vermin still has “Vermin traits” because wotc built redundancy into the vermin's stat block. Their type does change and they would seem to lose several of their key immunities as their type goes from Vermin to Magical Beast. But, I say they still have them because their Special Qualities entry notes they receive “Vermin traits”..

I am of the opinion that those special qualities listings are a fail safe to ensure certain critters that get templated retain immunities and capabilities that are based on what they are. Wotc built creature entries knowing full well the creature might have its’ type changed through templates. Many templates explicitly state the base creatures special qualities are retained.

A half fiend elemental still has the base critter’s crit immunity due to this. It may be a pile of rock tainted by demon seed, but that does not mean the pile of rocks has organs to sneak and vulnerable areas to crit.

Now, I think it is a fine house rule for a DM to say critters that gets an Int score automatically loose Mindless special qualities. But that is a house rule last I checked and Wotc has published material where creatures with Int got ooze traits and kept the mindless quality. Juiblex and his aspects are among the most recent of these.

 

[Thanee]

Uhm? The SQ entry usually lists all traits that come from the creature type.
Vermin traits are listed specifically, because it adds more than just darkvision or stuff like that.

There are two rules in conflict here, the one that says that the traits are used from the new type and the one that says SQ are retained. I don't think it is meant that the traits are retained, only other SQ.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I don't think it is meant that the traits are retained, only other SQ.

I'm with you on that.

 

[MarkB]

As I recall, according to the recent Rules of the Game article on changing types, a creature whose type changes gains the subtype "Augmented <original type>", which causes it to retain the original type's traits.

 

[Knight Otu]

The fiendish vermin still has “Vermin traits” because wotc built redundancy into the vermin's stat block. Their type does change and they would seem to lose several of their key immunities as their type goes from Vermin to Magical Beast. But, I say they still have them because their Special Qualities entry notes they receive “Vermin traits”..

I am of the opinion that those special qualities listings are a fail safe to ensure certain critters that get templated retain immunities and capabilities that are based on what they are. Wotc built creature entries knowing full well the creature might have its’ type changed through templates. Many templates explicitly state the base creatures special qualities are retained.

A half fiend elemental still has the base critter’s crit immunity due to this. It may be a pile of rock tainted by demon seed, but that does not mean the pile of rocks has organs to sneak and vulnerable areas to crit.

The rules are pretty clear that a creature that changes types generally has the traits of the new type, and the features of the old type. While your last example is one where the rules make no sense (anatomical qualities should usually be retained), that doesn't mean the rule should be thrown out.

Interesting question: If a template says the creature loses its special qualities, but dosen't change the type, what happens to the type traits?

Now, I think it is a fine house rule for a DM to say critters that gets an Int score automatically loose Mindless special qualities. But that is a house rule last I checked and Wotc has published material where creatures with Int got ooze traits and kept the mindless quality. Juiblex and his aspects are among the most recent of these.

I wouldn't call it a house rule (see the quotes below). Also according to the previews[/url], Juiblex is an outsider, not an ooze, so he's a bad example. (yes, he has ooze traits, but again, see below)

Nonabilities: Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0. Other effects of nonabilities are detailed below.
Intelligence: Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.
Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses.
...
Ooze
*Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the ooze has an Intelligence score. However, most oozes are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.
Traits: An ooze possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
*Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
...
Vermin
*Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the vermin has an Intelligence score. However, most vermin are mindless and gain no skill points or feats[/B].
Traits: Vermin possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
*Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

Oozes and vermins gain skills and feats if they have an intelligence score. However, most don't, and are mindless as a result. They have the other ooze/vermin traits, but are not mindless, since they have an Intelligence score.

 

[ElectricDragon]

So, looked at this way, you do not recalculate skill points because of type change; you do recalculate skill points and feats because of Intelligence change.

Ciao
Dave