5E fifth edition release schedule ... cart before the horse?

am181d

Visitor
but the amount of official product for 5e is way too limited for my tastes-this 2 months after phb was released. take away hoard and you have a phb and mm. take away phb and you have hoard and mm...well you get my point. so at present...and following the logical assumption that if i bought phb i wouldn't then turn around and pay 20 bucks for lost mines...i just have hoard.
Your point seems to be "if I discount some of the material WotC has released, they have not released enough material." I don't understand this argument at all. There are folks who are playing through both MINES and HOARD. The next book will be out before folks are finished with HOARD. This output is as quick as D&D has ever released new material for a new edition.

You're of course welcome to not like what WotC is producing (or to be turned off by tepid reviews), but this idea that they have somehow dropped the ball in not producing ENOUGH adventures is demonstrably factually inaccurate.
 

Henrix

Visitor
Fan done stuff tends to have serious issues unless someone's making a buck somewhere off of it.

Trollzine, for example, is on editor #4... in 8 issues. The issues of layout, editing, and pasteup make for interesting challenges. Getting maps into an easily used and printed format also is a good bit of work. Unpaid volunteers...
It has been done, and is being done right now, all over the place.

I don't see why it should be impossible just because not all succeed.

But it needs someone willing to do it, which is easier in small press, or OoP, games.
 

Iosue

Community Supporter
I admit, I don't know who Rob Kuntz even is, so you may have a point there.
Rob Kuntz was one of the original playtesters of D&D before it was released. He was there with Gygax when Arneson showed him the game, co-DMed Gygax's campaign, and was one of the first employees of TSR.

How's about this quote, though:

" I can complete a mission in Mass Effect in about an hour and a half. So why can’t I complete an adventure in D&D in that time? Why does it take me 4, 8, 12 hours just to get from page one of the adventure to the end? I mean, yeah, you can have huge epic adventures but I can’t do it in less than four hours." - Mike Mearls

It speaks to the value of time and the other things competing for our time. In this way homebrew is definitely not a winner. Any ideas that you don't have to develop yourself are a savings in time. Assuming that everyone who runs a game of D&D will decide to devote hours to development ultimately means a smaller customer base, as market research clearly shows.
It's a very nice quote, I'm very happy to see it, and it has absolutely nothing to do with anything I've said. I'm not saying that homebrew is the one true way to play, nor am I saying that using published material is inferior. I'm simply pointing out that homebrew != fanfiction.

Point there is even if it somehow was the 'true way to play', they realize now they were wrong. Or at least times have changed.
I'm not saying that homebrew is the one true way to play, nor am I saying that using published material is inferior. I'm simply pointing out that homebrew != fanfiction.

[MENTION=6680772]Iosue[/MENTION] It--home brew everything--was true in like 1974.
Yes, that was my point.

Temple of the Frog was included in the Blackmoor booklet in 1975. They would then license or distribute adventures from 3rd parties (like Wee Warriors) and produce modules for tournements for the next few years.

In 1978 B1 was released with Holmes Basic and the Gs and Ds and S1 Tomb of Horrors came out that same year. The floodgates had opened.
Those are very nice published adventures, I'm very happy to have used them, and they have absolutely nothing to do with anything I've said. I'm not saying that homebrew is the one true way to play, nor am I saying that using published material is inferior. I'm simply pointing out that homebrew != fanfiction.

As for the whole "derivative" thing...everything is derivative of everything. But of course their are very creative homebrews...and just terrible published adventures. Plenty, along with the gems.
I have already said that derivative doesn't mean bad. It just means derivative. And the general concept of homebrews is not derivative like the general concept of fanfiction is. A highly creative homebrew can be as original as a thing can be. Even the most creative fanfiction is still a derivative work of the source material. That's not a criticism; when it comes to fanfiction that's a feature, not a bug.
 

Zaukrie

Adventurer
I agree, we need modules. If they are hard for wotc to create, imagine being a new DM. As someone said above, we really miss Dungeon right now. Stand alone adventures are missing. Some of the replies here are seriously condescending to those that want modules.
 

TerraDave

5ever
I'm simply pointing out that homebrew != fanfiction.


<home brew everything--was true in like 1974.>

Yes, that was my point.
Whats the link again? You seem to be making two distinct points.

Maybe that fiction is just that, where as D&D is more like a tool to make your game in your way?
 

mcbobbo

Visitor
I have already said that derivative doesn't mean bad. It just means derivative. And the general concept of homebrews is not derivative like the general concept of fanfiction is. A highly creative homebrew can be as original as a thing can be. Even the most creative fanfiction is still a derivative work of the source material. That's not a criticism; when it comes to fanfiction that's a feature, not a bug.
Might be best to bring this fight to whomever actually said homebrew was fan fiction. I certainly never did, and wouldn't care if someone did or did not draw that comparison.

In fact you can easily make the case that fan fiction is typically NOT as derivative as Tolkien-esqe RPGs. My wife, for example, raves about certain "ships" that are inconceivable by canon and are (or sound at least to be) superior to the author's own work.

In short that particular comparison, without tieing it back to quality, is a bizarre hill to die on.
 

Iosue

Community Supporter
Whats the link again? You seem to be making two distinct points.

Maybe that fiction is just that, where as D&D is more like a tool to make your game in your way?
The OP compared homebrew to fanfiction. I'm simply saying that with fanfiction, the fanfiction comes after, and his heavily derivative of, the original material. Homebrew, on the other hand, has a long tradition in the hobby predating any published adventures or campaigns. So someone who's engaging in homebrew is not doing the same thing as creating fanficton.

Might be best to bring this fight to whomever actually said homebrew was fan fiction. I certainly never did, and wouldn't care if someone did or did not draw that comparison.
I did.
and yeah i know you can just let your dm 'create' a world but i don't want to play fanfiction..
You're the one that quoted and respond to me. I didn't quote you.

In fact you can easily make the case that fan fiction is typically NOT as derivative as Tolkien-esqe RPGs. My wife, for example, raves about certain "ships" that are inconceivable by canon and are (or sound at least to be) superior to the author's own work.
You could try to make the case, I suppose, but I don't see it as easily made. Using similar tropes strikes me as less derivative than using the same exact characters and setting.

In short that particular comparison, without tieing it back to quality, is a bizarre hill to die on.
I'm not dying on any hill. I simply said homebrew is not equivalent to fanfiction. Your replies to me have been completely tangential to that original point. Quality, incidentally, is irrelevant to my point, because I'm not operating from the perspective of "derivative = bad". That there are bad homebrews and fantastic fanfiction doesn't change that the former is a natural part of D&D, intended by the authors of the game, while the latter is consciously derivative of a different work, irrespective of the original author's intent or desire. They are similar creative processes, and certainly linked as expressions of wish-fulfillment, and yet they remain distinct.
 

mcbobbo

Visitor
I'm not dying on any hill. I simply said homebrew is not equivalent to fanfiction. Your replies to me have been completely tangential to that original point. Quality, incidentally, is irrelevant to my point, because I'm not operating from the perspective of "derivative = bad". That there are bad homebrews and fantastic fanfiction doesn't change that the former is a natural part of D&D, intended by the authors of the game, while the latter is consciously derivative of a different work, irrespective of the original author's intent or desire. They are similar creative processes, and certainly linked as expressions of wish-fulfillment, and yet they remain distinct.
In that same vein, apples are not pears, though both are fruit that grow on trees and can be delicious to eat.

Not that it adds anything to the conversation while we forbid the topic of pie making, but at least I got the last word in...

Is that how this works?
 

TerraDave

5ever
yeah i know you can just let your dm 'create' a world but i don't want to play fanfiction.. i want to see what the designers put together for this system (which again i really enjoy). .
[MENTION=6777934]Maldavos[/MENTION] i pretty much consider all 'homebrew' worlds to be inferior
i'm not really arguing against homebrew and it really doesn't matter if i was (i can't imagine all the worldbuilders are going to stop due to a comment in a thread :blush:). onwards !
Re: homebrew. I don't care if someone likes or dislikes homebrew. I'd just ask that it not be compared to fanfiction. Fanfiction is inherently derivative, whereas when it comes to D&D worlds, homebrew came first. Before there were any official campaign settings or even any published adventures, there was homebrew. It's how the game was intended to be played.
AHH, now I have got it.

Selkirk is welcome to his opinion. But it won't match up with a lot of peoples experiences. Homebrew games are often the best, but to be so (especially if you are home brewing all the adventure content) takes a lot from the DM.

Playing, say, only FR modules in FR...maybe its good, but could also be very, very bad. The world/setting is probably more of a taste issue. But for all the good adventures, there have been a lot of mediocre adventures over the years. TSR, WotC, Paizo, 3rd party producers like Necromancer/Frog God, have all put out bad adventures along with the good ones. In some cases many, many bad ones.

So, if your asking for WotC to put out a bunch of great, instant classic, intro adventures, it would be nice, but is probably a lot to ask for.
 

DM Howard

Explorer
Its not just you. [MENTION=59082]Mercurius[/MENTION] has only started like 10 or so threads basically all wondering when the WotCs are going to announce and release more stuff.
[MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION], a conversion guide for Next, which might just say "increase monster HP 50%" or "use monster stats from MM", would be handy.

On the other hand, 5E should be easier to convert lots of old adventurers to, certainly compared to 4E and probably 3E. I have just started doing this, but was not very hard, at least so far.
Most definitely a conversion guide would do wonders, plus it would increase sales of what they've put out through DriveThruRPG.

I'm curious what obstacles you have come across that needed ironing out to convert different things to 5E? I ask, because I haven't started doing so yet, but I will be soon.
 

TerraDave

5ever
Most definitely a conversion guide would do wonders, plus it would increase sales of what they've put out through DriveThruRPG.

I'm curious what obstacles you have come across that needed ironing out to convert different things to 5E? I ask, because I haven't started doing so yet, but I will be soon.
I am really at early stages, so hard to answer. Basically trying to lean on the MM as much as possible, including for NPCs. For those, the options are clearly limited, and we really need the DMG on how to customize them, and assign CRs for NPCs built as PCs, as this is not obvious, at all, from the examples.

Otherwise, if the CR of the monster is in the ballpark for the PCs, then just use the draft encounter building guidelines in Basic to check the number of them. I am not looking to tweak stat blocks...just use the MM version or a modified MM version (eg for a kobold sergent, look at a tougher monster like Orc for basic stats, then give it the kobold close fighting power).

Traps and obstacles is a whole other kettle of fish. Basically just winging these. If there is damage, check to see if it is reasonable (and pre 4E editions have damage scaling that is not that far off from 5E). Come up with DCs for perception or whatever else might be relevant, if all fails, I use DC 15.

But we need the DMG. Official conversion guide, some official coversions, and the DMG.
 

DM Howard

Explorer
I am really at early stages, so hard to answer. Basically trying to lean on the MM as much as possible, including for NPCs. For those, the options are clearly limited, and we really need the DMG on how to customize them, and assign CRs for NPCs built as PCs, as this is not obvious, at all, from the examples.

Otherwise, if the CR of the monster is in the ballpark for the PCs, then just use the draft encounter building guidelines in Basic to check the number of them. I am not looking to tweak stat blocks...just use the MM version or a modified MM version (eg for a kobold sergent, look at a tougher monster like Orc for basic stats, then give it the kobold close fighting power).

Traps and obstacles is a whole other kettle of fish. Basically just winging these. If there is damage, check to see if it is reasonable (and pre 4E editions have damage scaling that is not that far off from 5E). Come up with DCs for perception or whatever else might be relevant, if all fails, I use DC 15.

But we need the DMG. Official conversion guide, some official coversions, and the DMG.
OK, all of what you are doing so far seems reasonable to me, and almost exactly what I would do. Thanks for taking the time to share some of you thoughts on what you've found so far.

Yes, the DMG, at the very least, is sorely needed for a lot of the modules to be truly done (I hesitate to say) "right".
 

Selkirk

Visitor
@am181d not to put too fine of a point on this but if i bought phb on release there is little to no chance i would buy starter set for mines of phandelver. now this leaves me with one module- hoard. there is another module tyranny coming out november 4th. phb released on august 19th. so between release date and now i have one module. by november 4th i have another (albeit a continuation of the first module). the modules are definitely easier to produce than the books (and they are outsourcing the modules !). why not give us some choice and variety. some shorter adventures some longer ones (a full ap would be nice). release some conversions of old modules...throw some encounters up on the website. for now it's either your full on for hoard and then you play tyranny...or...well this is no or.

@etal :D why i don't necessarily care for homebrew- there is no product testing. meaning does the module/world work (not just mechanically but does it provide fun). again some homebrew campaigns might be wonderful...but hey i'm on deviant art too. not everyone is a professional artist..most of us are amateurs (and realize it) we do it for fun and/or are trying to get better. without playtesting -the players are left with untested ideas , encounters and settings...not that a dm designing his own world would be self indulgent :D.

to a second point-i really like the idea of the plot/lore advancing in a broad sense (community wide) not just in a home game. i like the shared experience of a bunch of players playing a module...man klarg was really tough in mines! for instance-provides a point of reference and a shared experience.

but all that being said...homebrew away my homebrewskis :D
 
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Hannerdyn

Explorer
[MENTION=6775377]Selkirk[/MENTION] there's 15 people working on 5E, so while I think what you're saying you'd like to see would be great to have, I don't think it's possible with the staff levels WOTC has working on D&D. At least not while they are still finishing up the DMG and likely working on a third part of the adventure.

So, you have a few choices: play what's available, play another edition or game, play hoard/mines, play homebrew, shake your fist on ENWorld.
 

Selkirk

Visitor
well that's true...but we shouldn't just give them a free pass-oh hey the company that just had the best selling book on amazon only has 15 people working on this project (cry me a river right?). and again they are outsourcing modules anyways....they had to know they needed more content. not to say they rushed the release...but they rushed the release ! (angrily waves fist on en world :D).

inspiration point for staying in character with fist waving? just saying....:p
 

Henrix

Visitor
The starter set is meant not as just a starter set, but also as a very good adventure. Phandelver is 2/3 as many pages as Hoard, and better in my opinion.


@etal :D why i don't necessarily care for homebrew- there is no product testing. meaning does the module/world work (not just mechanically but does it provide fun).
Uhm.... I don't know what to say about that.
Do you require the PCs to be product tested beforehand as well?

This game is all about improvisation and inventing new stuff - all the time; at the table and away from it.

What do the characters say, what do the monsters and NPCs say, what do they do - it is all inventing new stuff.

And so can you.
And it's damned fun. It doesn't have to be great, and it can be pretty small things - giant rats in the cellar.
 

Selkirk

Visitor
@Henrix and i agree... i mean i think homebrew can work and work very well (and it doesn't have to work in a traditional sense for it too 'work' -if that makes sense :D). but it just isn't my cup of tea (errr...ale :cool:) at this point with 5e.

and again on mines (which i have played and really like-and which has gotten better reviews than hoard)...why would i pay 20 bucks for starter set just to get mines?
 
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Hannerdyn

Explorer
they had to know they needed more content.
I don't think so. I mean, if half the people replying were in agreement with your original complaint, then yeah, sure. But near everyone seems pretty happy with the amount of available products out right now. If your demand is that they have a number of available modules and adventures that are not outsourced, thoroughly play-tested and excellent to coincide with the release of the new system, you may have to accept that you're in a small minority.

Therefore, the level and quality of content seems to be about right for most people playing the game.

So, no. I don't think they put the cart before the horse. They didn't know they would be as big a seller as they were, and even if they did I think most people would want them putting any additional resources into making a great system instead of converting or creating modules and adventures.
 

Psikerlord#

Explorer
@Maldavos i pretty much consider all 'homebrew' worlds to be inferior (some might be good...most of them definitely are not). but with a new edition i definitely consider all homebrew material to be inferior. the mechanics are new...mearls and company are still answering rules questions (some of them pretty big ones) and the designers are the ones that have a definite feel and knowledge for this edition. not to mention wotc employs professional writers and artists (and playtests modules) to ensure quality and play balance -which is what i find so delightful about mines of phandelver..the balance of the encounters.
@DeFcon1 it really wouldn't have mattered if hoard had gotten good reviews. if we assume that i bought phb on august 19th (it is very unlikely then that i would have paid 20 bucks for mines of phandelver in starter set) i would be left with one module of content. for experienced dm's and players fifth edition is just a bunch of mechanics which they can apply to whatever setting. to me as a new (albeit returning d&d) player-i am incredibly interested in the setting. i want more content tied into this pretty cool world...not some random 'world' from a homebrew campaign or some module from the past (which might or might not tie into the present 5e world). what wotc has given us so far is a very thin reed...a few sentences about setting/one module. and some rules. this isn't good enough!
I find many of the best adventures are those DMs write themselves. Our group typically uses the FR setting, in fact we've never homebrewed a world (too much work!) - but I'd say about half our adventures are written by the DM (and we rotate DMing duties, too). Theyre cool coz they are tailored to our party/history/what we're interested in. In my experience it is the published modules that tend to be lacklustre - especially if they arent tweaked by the DM with extra prep. We played the Isle of Dread in the playtest and that was fantastic. I hope the DMG includes guides to converting 2e and earlier adventures, or actually I hope they just release a bunch of older adventures re-statted for 5e.
 

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