Fighter attack: extra attacks vs extra damage

[dave2008]

Why aren't you/your player(s) interested in other classes, exactly? What you want is almost exactly what Barbarian and Paladin offer. You're skipping over classes that do exactly what you want to do. And it's not like Fighter is a class that's built around a lot of unique storytelling abilities either.

Several reasons:
1. I don't like the idea of multiple attacks, 2 seams reasonable, 4 seems epic, 8 seems ridiculous (to me).
2. I don't like the the extra rolls need, anything over 2 really slows things down. I could maybe go with multiple attacks on one roll, but that has issues as well.
3. I want a non-magic using fighter, paladin doesn't fit.
4. The barbarian is close, but I don't want the rage mechanic

 

[Weathercock]

Several reasons:
1. I don't like the idea of multiple attacks, 2 seams reasonable, 4 seems epic, 8 seems ridiculous (to me).

In real sword fighting, it's not unreasonable to fit 8 individual attacks in the span of 6 seconds (time of a single round of combat). Combat happens very quickly, even with something like a greatsword. https://youtu.be/V4blRbG7vLI?t=4m54s

2. I don't like the the extra rolls need, anything over 2 really slows things down. I could maybe go with multiple attacks on one roll, but that has issues as well.

Unless you're doing your attacks at different points during your turn (which is another advantage of , there's nothing wrong with rolling all of your attacks at once.

4. The barbarian is close, but I don't want the rage mechanic

Then just refluff Rage to be something like "Discapline" or some sort of "Tranquil Fury." It'd be less work than what you want to do now, and would fit what you want better.

 

[dave2008]

In real sword fighting, it's not unreasonable to fit 8 individual attacks in the span of 6 seconds (time of a single round of combat). Combat happens very quickly, even with something like a greatsword. https://youtu.be/V4blRbG7vLI?t=4m54s



Unless you're doing your attacks at different points during your turn (which is another advantage of , there's nothing wrong with rolling all of your attacks at once.



Then just refluff Rage to be something like "Discapline" or some sort of "Tranquil Fury." It'd be less work than what you want to do now, and would fit what you want better.

I have done some sword fighting and yes it is generally unrealistic to do 8 attacks in 6 seconds (your video reinforces that point as well). However, it is not how I visualize combat. A single "attack" in my mind involves feints, swings, parries, etc., it is not simply a swing of a sword.

The rage fluff isn't the issue, I don't like the mechanic. Though you are correct that the best option might be to use the barbarian as a base and then replace the rage w/ something else and refluff it to be a "fighter"

Thank you for input, I think I am getting closer and closer to a solution.

 

[MoutonRustique]

You could give the fighter "auto-cleave" to simulate extra attacks (~half the attacks damage to another foe when you bring one down~)

You might want to give them options for a bonus action that offers things like : push, knock down, a bit of extra movement and such to offset the loss of flexibility.

Also, keep in mind that those massive number of attacks only come in play at the higher levels - make sure you're going to need to use these alternate rules : no need to re-invent the wheel if you're going skiing...

 

[Li Shenron]

I am think max. 2 attacks at 2x damage (4x with surge).

It certainly wouldn't break the game.

One effect is that it increases the variance of your damage. For example if each attack has 50% hit probability, then with 2 separate attacks you normally have 25% probability of both hits + 50% probability of one hit & one miss + 25% probability of both misses; 'merge' these 2 into a single attack at x2 damage, and you have 50% probability of hit and 50% probability of miss. Your average damage is still the same, but with more rolls needed then you get a close-to-average damage more often (these are true whatever your hit probability).

OTOH there is a net disadvantage: that you cannot split up your attacks to multiple targets anymore. Sometimes, the first attack kills the target, but now you have combined the first and second attack (into a single roll with double damage), so your second attack is wasted.

I have done some sword fighting and yes it is generally unrealistic to do 8 attacks in 6 seconds (your video reinforces that point as well).

Forget about realism... Anyway the game ends at 20th-level, so you'd have to compare the 20th-level Fighter with the world's best swordfighters, not the average 'good' swordfighter, and neither the typical swordfighting teacher or dojo sensei. Maybe some olympic champions, but even they are not fantasy 20th-level swordfighters!

BTW, Action Surge is 2 times per day. You don't get to do 8 attacks per round, you get to do 8 attacks per round twice a day, and 4 attacks per round the rest of the day. It's not even that much high-fantasy.

 

[Weathercock]

Action surge is once/twice per short rest, not per day. Depending on the day, that would be between one to six uses in a day.

That said, a level 20 character would make an Olympic champion look like a complete chump. By time you reach 20, you've pretty much achieved demigod status. For example, a level 20 human monk with the mobile feat can dash at a speed of 38.4km/h while also being able to casually carry a minimum of 120lbs on his back. That's faster than Usain Bolt... while also carrying at least 120lbs on his back. And unlike Bolt, who gives his all for that 9 second dash of his, our Monk friend would have no trouble doing his little stunt 20 times as needed with only an hour needed to recover (while also fighting inbetween). That's insane physical capability by any normal standard.
In comparison, a fighter would generally be expected to pursue a similar degree of martial skill to a monk's pursuit of physical prowess. If our level 20 Monk can make Usain Bolt look like a complete amateur, what does a similarly accomplished Fighter achieve compared to any Olympic level fencer, let alone a casual practitioner? Keep in mind, by level 20, any martial class has achieved a level of skill and physical prowess that puts them on par with mages who can literally bend the very fabric of reality. 8 Attacks with any weapon over the course of 6 seconds isn't exactly unreasonable at that point.

If you want to try to be reasonable about things, physically inclined characters probably begin to far surpass the whole "Olympic champion level" of things anywhere between levels 1-5, depending on what you intend to measure.

Do keep in mind, if you still want to keep with the whole "fewer attacks being made" bit without worrying about the class balancing act, you could always just fluff any multiple attacks made against a single target to simply be a single excessively strong or decisive blow. Each attack roll doesn't necessarily have to be a measure for an individual blow, it could instead be a measure of severity for a single one. Hit some poor bastard with an action-surge-pumped 8 attack rolls and the damage rolls were enough to thoroughly obliterate him? Turns out it was actually a single perfect strike right through his heart. On the other hand, if your player does want to move around and split some attacks up, he then always has the option to do so, if need be. At the end of the day, DnD is a game of imagination; and as much as I love to metagame and number crunch (and I really, really love to do that), there are situations where focusing on imaginative solutions over mechanical ones can offer some much more intuitive results. And I feel this case is definitely one of them.

 

[dave2008]

You could give the fighter "auto-cleave" to simulate extra attacks (~half the attacks damage to another foe when you bring one down~)

You might want to give them options for a bonus action that offers things like : push, knock down, a bit of extra movement and such to offset the loss of flexibility.

Also, keep in mind that those massive number of attacks only come in play at the higher levels - make sure you're going to need to use these alternate rules : no need to re-invent the wheel if you're going skiing...

Yep, that is along the lines of hat I am thinking.

 

[dave2008]

It certainly wouldn't break the game.

One effect is that it increases the variance of your damage. For example if each attack has 50% hit probability, then with 2 separate attacks you normally have 25% probability of both hits + 50% probability of one hit & one miss + 25% probability of both misses; 'merge' these 2 into a single attack at x2 damage, and you have 50% probability of hit and 50% probability of miss. Your average damage is still the same, but with more rolls needed then you get a close-to-average damage more often (these are true whatever your hit probability).

OTOH there is a net disadvantage: that you cannot split up your attacks to multiple targets anymore. Sometimes, the first attack kills the target, but now you have combined the first and second attack (into a single roll with double damage), so your second attack is wasted.



Forget about realism... Anyway the game ends at 20th-level, so you'd have to compare the 20th-level Fighter with the world's best swordfighters, not the average 'good' swordfighter, and neither the typical swordfighting teacher or dojo sensei. Maybe some olympic champions, but even they are not fantasy 20th-level swordfighters!

BTW, Action Surge is 2 times per day. You don't get to do 8 attacks per round, you get to do 8 attacks per round twice a day, and 4 attacks per round the rest of the day. It's not even that much high-fantasy.

Yep, I am currently thinking of not changing action surge at all. Just making the standard attack do 2x damage. That seems to be the simplest change. So:
2 attacks = 1 attack at 2x damage
3 attacks = 1 attack at 2x damage and 1 attack at damage
4 attacks = 2 attacks at 2x damage

Ya, I'm not really overly worried about being realistic either. By 20th level PCs are demigods IMO. However, it does slow the game down in a needless way to me. I think with the revision above and then adding a cleave mechanic I can cover what I need.

 

[Weathercock]

I still don't see how having the extra attacks slows the game down. If you're making them all at once against the same target, you should be rolling all the dice at once. All the while not having to worry about which attack you're using your *2 multiplier for, and which attack hits normally (what happens if you land a crit with GWM or have Haste cast on you?), or calculating whatever may be needed for a cleave mechanic. Dealing with all that, you're going to end up slowing the game down quite a bit. It seems like a lot of work and complication for a problem you can solve just by saying saying "and these three attack rolls were basically one really big attack that split the guy in two."

 

[Li Shenron]

However, it does slow the game down in a needless way to me.

Yes, I forgot to mention this... you make less decisions and roll less dice, if this is good for you then you have a benefit from your house rule (rather than just the statistical distribution, I don't think that really makes much difference when the average is unchanged).