There is precious little as to what a fighter can do *outside* of combat...
The only thing an RPG needs in order for all actions to be possible is a robust, but ideally easy to use set of core rules that the GM can use to adjudicate the results of the actions the players describe. Giving players codified options of things they can do using a more specific set of rules, such as a spell or a combat maneuver, does not prevent other players from performing actions with similar intended results using the core rules of the game. Just because the Battlemaster in 5e has a disarm maneuver doesn’t mean only Battlemasters can disarm people. Just because the Rogue has Sneak Attack doesn’t mean only Rogues can attack people’s weak points from a hidden position. People seem to draw these weird arbitrary lines where it’s ok for characters other than the Ranger to follow tracks, but for some reason if a Feat called “Whirlwind Attack” exists, nobody who doesn’t have it is allowed to spin around in a circle when they attack. It’s bizarre.
I’m not interested in designing games around “bad DM proofing” them. I’d much rather the designers assume DM competence, and then the community teach DMs to do it well than for the designers to restrict themselves because someone somewhere might handle it less than ideally.Ideally, that would be how it worked. But both organizationally and mechanically, it's not. I've benn at PFS tables at Cons where players were told outright, "You don't have X feat, so you can't do that." Maybe those GMs were "doing it wrong." But I've watched it happen, and I don't think its that rare. It becomes the expectation that, if a mechanical option is available that it will become the preferred method of doing that thing.
It’s not. The Rogue’s Sneak Attack feature is codified as “do more damage when you attack someone’s weak points from a hidden position.” This is an example of a really well designed maneuver because rather than allowing the character to do something specific (and in some DMs minds, disallowing other characters from doing it), it gives them a unique benefit when they do something that anyone can do. Ideally, this is how all maneuvers, feats, etc. should be designed. This is why 4e’s Hammer Hands (an at-will stance that lets you shove an enemy 5 feet and then move into the space you shoved them out of whenever you hit with a melee attack while in the stance) is a better-designed Power than Tide of Iron (an at-will Attack that does the sake shove-and-shift effect on a hit), despite having nearly identical effects.Your own examples support this. If "attack people’s weak points from a hidden position" is codified in the game rules as "do more damage" then only a Rogue gets sneak attack damage.
This problem doesn’t go away in a streamlined system. If you let a player’s described action in combat do something other than the system-prescribed effects of an attack, and the result is better than a normal attack, you trivialize normal attacks. If the result is worse than an attack, the game mechanics “persuade” other players not to try. This was part of the reason for the shift towards “front loaded” maneuvers in the first place - players wanted to be able to do cool things without having to rely on DM adjudication either invalidating normal attacks or making cool improvised options not worthwhile. This is just something you kind of have to accept as part of roleplaying games. DM-adjudicated results are always going to run the risk of not being perfectly numerically balanced witn the rest of the system. The inclusion or exclusion of codified maneuvers doesn’t change this fact either way.If the game is balanced around the chance a Battlemaster has to disarm, then either you trivialize the BM's ability by giving everyone else the same chance to succeed, or the game mechanics numerically "persuade" others not to try because the numbers mean they have a radically lower chance of success (this was one serious problem with PF1's skill system). Either way, the build choices reduce the *viable* choices.
Sure, but my point was they should have known that from the word “Pathfinder” in the title. Anyone who came into PF2 hoping it would be anything short of a crunchy, “front-loaded” system was setting themselves up for disappointment. Paizo knows their niche, and while they may be trying to streamline the complexity of the new system, they know that any significant loss of mechanical depth, particularly in terms of character building options, is going to lose their core audience’s interest.Of course, this is necessary in any RPG. The question is the extent. And that circles back around to my original point. The OP could tell very quickly whether the new PF would fit his balance of where player choice occurs,
A newbie question: why doesn't a shield help against breath weapons and fireballs, even at 1st level, whether I'm a Fighter or not?
Most tables I've played at operate nothing like Critical Role. How you can leap from scripted streaming shows to "general community" is beyond me.
It seems like everyone get's class feats, which are for combat, and skill feats and ancestor feats, which seem like they fill the non-combat part of things.There is precious little as to what a fighter can do *outside* of combat...
It seems like everyone get's class feats, which are for combat, and skill feats and ancestor feats, which seem like they fill the non-combat part of things.
So you’re just going to ignore the part where I said “after level 3” then?
It seems like everyone get's class feats, which are for combat, and skill feats and ancestor feats, which seem like they fill the non-combat part of things.
More like forget :/
Anyway, to address that more fully - There is definitely more in PF than 5e for that... but at the same time, because of feat chains etc, you need to plan your character in advance. So does "after level 3" really "exist"? Since you'll have made those choices already at low level...
A fighter in a less "crunchy" game is surrounded by three opponents who are trying to grab him. The player controlling the fighter looks at the GM and says, "I want to spin around with my sword held outward and try to strike all of the opponents surrounding me. They are crowding in on me, so they would have a hard time not being hit." The DM thinks about it and says,"O.K., that makes sense. It'll be harder to hit the opponents, because you are spinning and not aiming. Take a -5 penalty on each roll."
A newbie question: why doesn't a shield help against breath weapons and fireballs, even at 1st level, whether I'm a Fighter or not?
Sure, but that doesn’t explain why a shield adds to your AC but not to your Reflex. Cover adds to your Reflex, why not shields?Because a shield adds to your AC and neither breath weapons nor fireballs target your AC.
I disagree. In fact, I can say with relative certainty that, at most tables, delineated abilities only increase player choice at creation and serve to restrict player choice during play. I'll give you an example.
A fighter in a less "crunchy" game is surrounded by three opponents who are trying to grab him. The player controlling the fighter looks at the GM and says, "I want to spin around with my sword held outward and try to strike all of the opponents surrounding me. They are crowding in on me, so they would have a hard time not being hit." The DM thinks about it and says,"O.K., that makes sense. It'll be harder to hit the opponents, because you are spinning and not aiming. Take a -5 penalty on each roll."
In a more crunchy game, the DM is more likely to say, "That sounds like a Whirlwind attack. Did you take that feat? If not, you can't do that." Now a more flexible DM might allow someone to try a whirlwind attack untrained with penalties, but then runs the risk of irritating the player who took that feat, as it might be seen as devaluing that feat choice (if anyone can do it, the feat just becomes about bonuses). I've actually seen this happen at the table in a PFS game.
You see, by delineating these choices in the rules, you add to your choices during character creation. But in many circumstances, you've now closed off the other actions you didn't take feats for during play. It's the difference between a board game and a role playing game. In an ideal (meaning theoretical) board game, all actions are prescribed precisely by the rules. In an ideal RPG, all actions are possible, with the rules determining the results. The middle generation of RPGs (3.5, et al.) became more like board games ( I'd argue because of a fear of bad DMs restricting player agency and also the desire to minimize "arbitrary" decisions at the table... but that's another argument). This has somewhat trained many DMs and players to think of RPGs as pseudo-board games (especially in combat), with only those actions expressly permitted as being allowed. AD&D had rules to describe the results of actions; modern RPGs of the same lineage have rules to explain what *can* be done (look at the action economy rules, with bonus actions, reactions, etc...). Pathfinder 1 was firmly in that mold (and less so than 5e is). PF2 appears to have the same underlying rationale...
Yeah, sometimes I miss the days where you can just tell the DM that you are stabbing the Fool in the eye to get an insta-kill without having to go through the slog of peeling off his hit points the old fashioned way.
Hopefully, the first PF2 monster compendium will contain a stat block for Straw Dogs, since you seem fond of them.
P.S. As per AD&D PH - Incapacitated creatures may be killed at the rate of one per round (no pesky hp need be peeled)...
Preach on!! Less "ruled" options, and more imagination, please.
Sure, but my point was they should have known that from the word “Pathfinder” in the title. Anyone who came into PF2 hoping it would be anything short of a crunchy, “front-loaded” system was setting themselves up for disappointment. Paizo knows their niche, and while they may be trying to streamline the complexity of the new system, they know that any significant loss of mechanical depth, particularly in terms of character building options, is going to lose their core audience’s interest.
Preach on!! Less "ruled" options, and more imagination, please.
Sure, but that doesn’t explain why a shield adds to your AC but not to your Reflex. Cover adds to your Reflex, why not shields?
Maybe you can provide that feedback during the playtest?