Fighter help for an upcoming campaign

One thing to perhaps think about doing is going for cleave for a bit then re-training it to Whirlwind Attack at 4th level.

So something like this going human instead:

Feats:
Human - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack
[Retrain Cleave to Whirlwind Attack]
5th - Furious Focus
6th - Lunge
 

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One thing to perhaps think about doing is going for cleave for a bit then re-training it to Whirlwind Attack at 4th level.

So something like this going human instead:

Feats:
Human - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack
[Retrain Cleave to Whirlwind Attack]
5th - Furious Focus
6th - Lunge

Yeah, but Whirlwind Attack is different from Cleave on a key feature: Whirlwind Attack is a full attack action. This, in my experience DRASTICALLY reduces the applications of the feats.
 

Yeah, but you can only use cleave if you hit the first time to try to hit a second opponent, whereas whirlwind you attempt to hit ALL of them with your highest BAB. Most of the time a fighter wants to do a full attack anyhow rather than move/attack. He may even want to think about the mobile fighter archetype if going with the small build I posted, then the capstone ability is to move and whirlwind! This is especially cool if you are enlarged, have a reach weapon, and lunge. Then you have a 20' radius to whirlwind around you hitting everything with you highest BAB in the process.

It just depends on play-style at this point, if the OP wants to be a shredding machine I'd say go with Whirlwind as opposed to the cleave line. If he wants to go with a trip build, then I say to grab a reach weapon that adds bonuses to doing so.
 

Did some updating of the original post with my most recent build. Moved to using a reach weapon instead of a curveblade, and squeezed a few new feats in there. I still want the character to focus on critical hits and tripping to be his tricks in combat, as those sound fun and effective.

If you don't take Weapon Spec, and greater weapon spec you are giving up part of your "fighter advantage"
Weapon Spec is an okay feat, but honestly I'm not in love with it. There are lots of other things that just seem more effective than doing +2 damage per hit. Maybe I will pick it up at the higher levels when I start to run out of interesting feats to take. Although at higher levels +2 damage seems even more irrelevant.

In my opinion, the difficult part of first level play is actually HITTING the enemies.
I have to agree with Ramaster. I don't feel power attack is very useful at low level. Many enemies tend to have an AC in the range of 14-18, and my attack bonus is only going to be +5 at level one. I hate power attacking if I think my hit chance is going to fall to less than 60% or so. Plus, with trip being a focus of this character, power attacking directly lowers his CMB, and makes him less likely to successfully trip for that round.

It looks like the rest of the party is shaping up to be:
Paladin (Warrior of the Holy Light)
Summoner (Synthesist)
Rogue
Cleric
 

If not using a Elven Curveblade I would likely switch to Human, or maybe even something more exotic.

a) Mechanically you're not gaining much by using an Elven Curveblade over a Falchion
b) If you want to use an Elven Curveblade you can go human and spend the bonus feat on proficiency with it which leaves you the other human benefits which might still be better than going elf, -2 con hurts a fighter.
c) Ultimate Combat has the Nodachi which has the same damage & crit range as the Elven Curveblade and the brace special property - as a martial weapon...
(I think it's stupid but that's the way it is btb)
 

Did some updating of the original post with my most recent build. Moved to using a reach weapon instead of a curveblade, and squeezed a few new feats in there. I still want the character to focus on critical hits and tripping to be his tricks in combat, as those sound fun and effective.

I'm not sure that tripping works well at higher levels. I think the CMD of enemies tends to increase faster than your CMB will. There's also the problem of more flying enemies (immune to trip), more options for multi-legged creatures (harder to trip) and more options for creatures without legs (immune to trip), more creatures that are at the high end of the size scale (can only trip 1 size larger than you)

So I'd be a little cautious about how much investment I put into trip attacks versus normal combat.(note that I'm not basing this on real high level gaming experience with a trip monkey and a lot of it is campaign dependent)

If you're going crit focused I do recommend having Critical Mastery and a couple more of the crit modifier feats, Crippling & Bleeding aren't bad options as Bleeding is available early and there's a feat that allows you to apply 2 of the critical feat attacks on 1 crit.

Weapon Spec is an okay feat, but honestly I'm not in love with it. There are lots of other things that just seem more effective than doing +2 damage per hit. Maybe I will pick it up at the higher levels when I start to run out of interesting feats to take. Although at higher levels +2 damage seems even more irrelevant.

The feats Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization together add up to +2 to hit and +4 to damage on each hit.
One of the things about the optimization game is that you're often better getting lots of little bonuses rather than trying to find 1 big bonus because they do all add up.
At the level you can get Greater Weapon Specialization you'll commonly be hitting twice a round (3 times with Haste) and with a reach weapon attacks of opportunity aren't rare so you can commonly be putting out an additional 12 - 16 points of damage a round. That adds up over a couple of rounds.
Basically the bonus to damage is the same as the Barbarian gets as part of their level 20 ability


I have to agree with Ramaster. I don't feel power attack is very useful at low level. Many enemies tend to have an AC in the range of 14-18, and my attack bonus is only going to be +5 at level one. I hate power attacking if I think my hit chance is going to fall to less than 60% or so. Plus, with trip being a focus of this character, power attacking directly lowers his CMB, and makes him less likely to successfully trip for that round.

One of the upsides of the number of feats that a fighter has is the option to build multiple trees, so you can have power attack for when you don't want to trip, you've already tripped it on an opportunity attack or it's immune to trip. There's also a feat that negates the penalty from power attack on your first attack for the round so you could trip the enemy with that and then beat on it once it goes down.

At first level I think it's probably best as a prerequisite for Cleave which gives you a fair chance of taking down 2 enemies in a round (60% to hit gives 36% chance of hitting twice)
Note that at low levels you go from an average of 8.5 to 11.35 damage on a hit by turning power attack on with a 2 handed weapon for -1 to hit (based on your current stats, weapon choice and feats with combat expertise changed to power attack)
Which gives you a much better chance of taking down a Lizardfolk, horse gnoll etc in 1 hit.

Power attacking gives you more average damage per hit for your character unless you need an unadjusted 18 or 19 to hit. at AC 18 you'd need a 13 to hit normally so you go from 3.4 to 4 average damage per hit. and there's only 1 in 20 chance of missing due to the power attack.
(Things change at 4th level due to the penalty going up 1)

Of course you do have the penalty to hit and it reduces your chance to trip on Attacks of Opportunity

It looks like the rest of the party is shaping up to be:
Paladin (Warrior of the Holy Light)
Summoner (Synthesist)
Rogue
Cleric

Interesting party composition.
If the rogue isn't a ranged rogue you'll want to be paying attention to setting up flanks with the rogue because with the reach you can threaten a lot of creatures. Against that if they move into an adjacent square you stop threatening so the rogue can't flank with you. Of course that also means they probably aren't attacking the rogue so...

It could end up with you having a party of 5 melee combatants which makes your control less effective (because if everybody wants to move up and attack then you get a lot less attacks of opportunity and the battle becomes more static) Of course tripping something that is surrounded by your allies gives them big bonuses to hit and once you get Greater Trip then they all might get attacks of opportunity...
 

c) Ultimate Combat has the Nodachi which has the same damage & crit range as the Elven Curveblade and the brace special property - as a martial weapon...
(I think it's stupid but that's the way it is btb)

Objection!!!

The Elven Curveblade doesn't have reach, but it has 2 special qualities:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/curve-blade-elven

Basically, +2 against sunder and can be finessable. It might not be much, but if you are an elven rogue with 14 STR and a bunch of DEX, it is actually a most Elegant Weapon for a More Civilized Age (tm).
 

I'm not sure that tripping works well at higher levels. I think the CMD of enemies tends to increase faster than your CMB will. There's also the problem of more flying enemies (immune to trip), more options for multi-legged creatures (harder to trip) and more options for creatures without legs (immune to trip), more creatures that are at the high end of the size scale (can only trip 1 size larger than you)
Agreed. There are lots of things that trip wont be very effective on, and I'll just have to deal with that by resorting to straight damage and (at high levels) getting crit procs in those situations.

If you're going crit focused I do recommend having Critical Mastery and a couple more of the crit modifier feats, Crippling & Bleeding aren't bad options as Bleeding is available early and there's a feat that allows you to apply 2 of the critical feat attacks on 1 crit.
The reason I haven't been too interested in investing more heavily in those critical feats, is because it seems like the stunning power is so good that it doesn't even matter what else I do after that. A stunned opponent is as good as dead. If they make their save are are staggered instead, that is nearly as good. Both of those conditions are HUGELY crippling already. Why bother with tacking more things on top of that.

As for the early Power Attack and Weapon Spec feats, as I've said I don't hate them - they just don't seem as useful as the stuff that is taking up my feat slots already. Doing a few more damage per hit, when averaged over the whole groups damage output each round, looks a lot less useful than actually being able to disable opponents and/or give myself and my party members whole extra AOO's each round (through tripping or outflanking).
 

I should say before I start that I think the character design you've got is pretty solid and we're just quibbling over details.

The reason I haven't been too interested in investing more heavily in those critical feats, is because it seems like the stunning power is so good that it doesn't even matter what else I do after that. A stunned opponent is as good as dead. If they make their save are are staggered instead, that is nearly as good. Both of those conditions are HUGELY crippling already. Why bother with tacking more things on top of that.

Partly because Crippling Critical combined with staggering really cuts down on movement and lasts for a minute so can really negate their ability to get to your more vulnerable party members and bleed is useful for minor targets


As for the early Power Attack and Weapon Spec feats, as I've said I don't hate them - they just don't seem as useful as the stuff that is taking up my feat slots already. Doing a few more damage per hit, when averaged over the whole groups damage output each round, looks a lot less useful than actually being able to disable opponents and/or give myself and my party members whole extra AOO's each round (through tripping or outflanking).

Power attack at first level looks to make a difference between a 50% kill on a hit and maybe a 30% chance of a kill on a hit for the tougher CR critters. Put Cleave in at low levels and you've got a pretty reasonable chance of killing at least one opponent a round and a chance of killing 2 enemies in a round.

Of course to get cleave you'd need to drop weapon focus to later levels which slows everything up.
My rough calculations give you about a 1/3 chance of dropping an unharmed gnoll in a round with Falchion, cleave and power attack compared to about a 1/6 chance with your build.

With just power attack instead of Combat Expertise you have a 1/4 chance of dropping a gnoll in a round.

At 1st level I think you're better off doing the damage than getting too fancy with trip simply because of the low number of hits it takes to kill things. I'm not sure how well it holds at 2nd and 3rd level though so your build still might be better for most of low levels.

In any case more options and more fun can often trump more power anyway and at worst your build is a little bit worse.
 


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