Fighter problems

[The Amazing Dingo]

Taneel, I think Pendragon meant even more then the simple restriction to Fighters was that the abilities are way too powerful.

Look at it this way...a Vorpal Blade alone has a modifier of +5. That ability doesn't appear to be magical, you could actually have what would amount to a +15 weapon at level 20.

I also think thats a little too much.

Of course, the +20 to damage is nothing more then a True Strike plus Power Attack. (Though at 16th level you could only do +16, but you get the idea)

 

[Welverin]

Not exactly true. Yes, a fighter can fo massive damage to one or two foes, but a mage can do 20d6 to all of them!

Heck, a mage can average a 30 point fiireball at 10th and do it to like 20 guys a round. That's 600 points of damagey goodness. Not to mention the mage can fly, be invis, have stoneskin....all without equipment.

But the number of spells a wizard can cast in a day is limited, the fighter has no such limit on the number of attacks he can make.

 

[Vecnasaurus]

I like the generic feel of the fighter. I always tend to see it as a blank slate from which I can build an interesting character. Compare that to, say, the paladin. Although the 2e 'Complete Paladin's Handbook' had some great ideas for making unique paladin personalities (I highly recommend it), it still remains that all paladins, at heart, will be very much the same. Fighters (and, incidentally, rogues) have enormous flexibility.

Besides, I always thought fighters were the principle example of why prestige classes exist. Most other base classes tempt you to stay on the path with the unique special abilities, but the fighter just screams for a prestige class. Complete Warrior, I believe, has some excellent classes that only the fighter can realistically reach for. And even if you don't go for one, at 20th level you'll have a character who's well equipped with more, and more flexible, combat options than anyone else.

I would argue that the only deficiency is the skill point issue, but most DM's are willing to play the swap game. I would hesitate to give away class skills like Spot and Listen, though, just so skills like Hide and Move Silently aren't accidently weakened by comparison (the more people who can spot, the less effective it is to hide, after all).

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

But ya, where are these other feats? I've never heard of them from you

Check the link below. There are at least three threads discussing that there.

http://p082.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm1?page=9

Dan McS, I really like your Iron Raptor feat!

Their sheer number of feats allow them to perform some nice tricks that other classes simply arent' capable of doing.

You'll notice that most classes gain new tricks that other classes aren't capable of doing over the whole 20 levels, however.

Lord Pendragon, those are also cool feats.

If I can add another notion to the topic, do those who feel the Fighter class is lacking (which I can understand, if not agree with) thinks it lacks in its power or simply in its flavor? It seems to be a slightly mixed bag with some people falling in the middle of the two.

Both, but IMO the main problem is flavor. When it comes to power I think fighters need a boost, but not in the damage department. Fighters do more than enough damage, IMO. I mean, it would be nice to have damage-boosting feats so NPC fighters wouldn't suck, but that would overpower fighter PCs who have the usual amount of gear

 

[Krieg]

On the House Rules board Gez posted a variant Fighter in which he took the stunts from the Complete Warrior's Exotic Weapon Master and used them as feats available to Fighters only.

I couldn't find the original thread, so I've gone ahead and pasted Gez's original post is below:

The fighter is a good class, but a bland class. Part of 3.5's aim was to give more reasons to continue progressing in a given class, rather than using it as a front-loaded shortcut toward a prestige class. This can be seen for the paladin, the ranger or the bard (bardic music styles being keyed to level rather than simply to level, for example).

But not the fighter. Sure, the class is powerful enough already, but just, well, bland. There's nothing at high level that the fighter, and only the fighter, can get eventually. Sure, he'll have more feats than what one may get with most prestige classes, but feats are feats are feats. There's other way to get them.

So, as the fighter gets at level 4 the possibility to take a feat (nearly) only him can take; I had the idea of giving him more unique feats. And these feats, I ripped them from the stunts of the Exotic Weapon Master from the Complete Warrior, as overviewed here, and then added a few more.

I advise not to use this prestige class if adopting this variant fighter. Heck, I would advise not using it altogether. Conceptually, it don't make too much sense.

FIGHTER
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

• Base
• Attack Fort Ref Will
• Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
• App +0 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat
• 1st +1 +2 +0 +0
• 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus feat
• 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1
• 4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat, qualify for weapon specialization
• 5th +5 +4 +1 +1
• 6th +6* +5 +2 +2 Bonus feat
• 7th +7 +5 +2 +2
• 8th +8 +6 +2 +2 Bonus feat OR special stunt
• 9th +9 +6 +3 +3
• 10th +10 +7 +3 +3 Bonus feat
• 11th +11* +7 +3 +3
• 12th +12 +8 +4 +4 Bonus feat OR special stunt
• 13th +13 +8 +4 +4
• 14th +14 +9 +4 +4 Bonus feat
• 15th +15 +9 +5 +5
• 16th +16* +10 +5 +5 Bonus feat OR special stunt
• 17th +17 +10 +5 +5
• 18th +18 +11 +6 +6 Bonus feat
• 19th +19 +11 +6 +6
• 20th +20 +12 +6 +6 Bonus feat OR special stunt

*: Gets a new iterative attack at this BAB value.



Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).
Bonus Feats (Ex): A fighter starts with a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and, if appropriate, the race-granted bonus feat.
The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at every even fighter level (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Weapon Specialization (Ex): A fourth-level fighter may select Weapon Specialization as a regular feat or as a bonus fighter feat.

Special Stunt (Ex): At eighth level, and every four fighter levels thereafter, a figther may learn a special stunt instead of taking a bonus feat. Special stunts are maneuvers he may only perform with a weapon or weapons he is specialized (with Weapon Specialization) in.

• Close-Quarters Ranged Combat: The fighter doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity for attacking with a ranged weapon.
• Flurry of Strikes: The fighter can make an additional attack at his best attack bonus during a full attack with a melee weapon, at the cost of a -2 penalty on all attacks.
• Graceful Combat: If the fighter has Weapon Finesse, he can use it with one-handed weapons, as well as the usual (light weapons, rapier, whip, and spiked chain of appropriate size).
• Great Sunder: The fighter gains an extra +4 of damage on sunder attacks with a melee weapon.
• Ranged Disarm: The fighter may make a disarm attempt with a ranged weapon. The weapon is considered light for purpose of the opposed check.
• Show Off: As a move-equivalent action, the fighter can perform a display of martial mastery with a melee weapon. This count as a demoralize opponent Intimidate attempt against a foe within 30 feet. If the fighter wins the opposed check, the foe is shaken for 1 round per four fighter levels.
• Sneak Attack: The fighter gains +1d6 damage when making a sneak attack. A fighter can select this stunt several times, each time addition one additional sneak attack damage die.
• Stunning Blow: The fighter may make a stunning attack with a melee weapon once per day per four fighter levels. He must declare he is using this stunt before making the attack roll. If he hits, his target must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + half the fighter's HD + the fighter's Wisdom modifier) in addition to taking damage normally. If the target fails the save, it is stunned for 1 round.
  A fighter may select this stunt more than once. The number of uses of stunning blow he may make stacks.
• Surprising Strike: The fighter's capacity to make attacks of opportunity is not hampered by less-than-total cover.
• Throw Weapon: The fighter may throw a melee weapon without special penalty. The weapon is considered to have a range increment of 10 feet.
• Trip Attack: The fighter may make a trip attack with a melee weapon with a +2 bonus. As a free action, he can drop the weapon to avoid the counter-trip attempt. This stacks with Improved Trip.
• Twin Weapon: The fighter is considered to have Two-Weapon Fighting when using two identical melee weapons. If he already has Two-Weapon Fighting, the penalties are reduced by 2.
• Uncanny Blows: The fighter can pack more strength in a blow with a one-handed weapon, by wielding it two-handed. The Strength bonus to damage is doubled.
• Weapon Defense: The fighter gains a +1 shield bonus to his Armor Class when wielding a melee weapon. This don't stack with the use of a shield or with Two-Weapon Defense.
• Weapon Mastery: The fighter gains a +1 bonus to attack and a +1 bonus to damage with his specialized weapons. This stacks with the bonus from the feats from the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feat trees.
• Weapon Parry: The fighter may ready a special attack action with a melee weapon, to parry a melee attack from an opponent in a threatened square. If that opponent attacks him, the fighter makes an opposed attack roll; if the fighter wins, the opponent's attack miss. Readying an action is a standard action.

Again, I stress that these stunts can only be performed with weapons the fighter is specialized in. This will limit the uses of them with usually one weapon, sometimes two or three. At max, a 20th-level human fighter could have 8 Weapon Focus, 8 Weapon Specialization, and 3 stunts; or 7 WF, 7 WS, 4 stunt and one regular feat.

You might also want to take a look at Masters of Arms from Second World Simulations. There are a ton of fighter special abilities that could be used in a similar manner.

http://www.second-world-simulations.com/Masters%20of%20Arms.htm

 

[S'mon]

If the argument is that Fighters are weak, I disagree. Certainly Fighters were weak in 3.0 compared to Hasted spellcasters, but 3.5 has restored the balance, they seem perfectly viable to me - weaker than Clerics of course, but so's everybody else.

If the argument is that they're inflexible, well you can make a flexible warrior type by multiclassing if desired, to Rogue especially. The Will save problem is a universal one in regards to the high-level disparity between good & poor saves, which multiclassing exacerbates. The problem there is that the mechanic WoTC settled on doesn't work well for multiclassing especially, eg a Fighter-Barbarian with a Fighter-based PrC has ridiculously high Fort save (due to the +2 they get every time they multiclass) and probably pathetic Will (unless they made sure all their class level totals divided by 3 before multiclassing!). A progression that looked more like the old 1e save tables, where you only got the +2 bonus at 1st (character) level, would work better IMO.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

To those who complimented my feats, thank you.

Personally, as others have already suggested, I don't think the fighter's problem is raw damage. He's still the damage king. The go-to guy. However, there should be higher-level feats that allow him to do things that others can't, and are more...impressive, than lower-level feats, just as higher-level spells are more impressive than low-level ones. So I tried to create a few feats that would give the fighter options that are powerful, but not necessarily in a direct-damage kind of way.

I'm currently playing in a campaign with a pure fighter. So far he's having a ball, and is definitely the lynchpin of our offense. It'll be interesting to see how things develop as we move into the mid-levels. Our wizard just picked up Fireball.

 

[apieros]

Personally, as others have already suggested, I don't think the fighter's problem is raw damage. He's still the damage king. The go-to guy. However, there should be higher-level feats that allow him to do things that others can't, and are more...impressive, than lower-level feats, just as higher-level spells are more impressive than low-level ones. So I tried to create a few feats that would give the fighter options that are powerful, but not necessarily in a direct-damage kind of way.

The problem is that any feat which allows the fighter more attacks, attacks in different circumstances (like the Furious Charge), or a bonus to attacks, are all really raw damage feat.

More attacks = more chances to hit = more hits, on average = more damage, on average. (etc.)

If what people want is different saves/skills then rip a page from Unearthed Arcana. The "Generic" classes allow characters to pick which saves are their good saves, and which their bad. They also allow characters to choose their class skills.

Adopt these rules (pick saves and pick class skills), and fighters can have hide, sneak, and Use Magic Device as class skills (if the player wants). They can have a good Reflex save.

In fact, adopt these for all classes, and your players will be happy with the flexibility.

Building a swashbuckler requres Ref as a good save? Done.
Building another fighter archetype requires a Profession skill? Done.

Etc.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I really think the real anwser to all of these problems with the fighter is to either give them more specfic class feats, expand martial arts styles, or print more tactical feats like the ones in Complete Warrior. They encourage you to realy try some special moves... my favorite is where I charge and power attack at a 6 or more and my full blade gets TRIPLE the power attack points I put into it. If you're the all power attack all the time type this could lead to some simply devastating attacks.

Here here! Okay, we probably shouldn't mess with Power Attack (many people are uncomfortable with it, and it's just about numbers) but other than that, here here!

Besides, I always thought fighters were the principle example of why prestige classes exist.

Not everyone wants to PrC (and that was definitely not the reason why the fighter class was invented).

The problem is that any feat which allows the fighter more attacks, attacks in different circumstances (like the Furious Charge), or a bonus to attacks, are all really raw damage feat.

That's not really what we're looking for, however.

Building a swashbuckler requres Ref as a good save? Done.

Making a swashbuckler takes a lot more work than changing saving throw categories.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I don't think I've seen this topic on ENWorld in ages, but it's common on the WotC boards.

There have been complaints about the fighter, which I've seen summarized as follows:


http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=299836&page=1&pp=30

I don't necessarily agree with #4, and I think the swashbuckler concept should be added to #1, but otherwise I agree with this.

Number 4 isn`t really a problem, except in one situation: Saving throws against fear effects. It works great with Intimidate, which isn`t based on a save but on level and wisdom, but it fails against Dragon´s Frightful Presence or fear spells. Why are fighters more fearsome then wizards? Wizards have a lot more to fear, even a single kobold warrior can kill an unexperienced wizards in one hit (exaggeration maybe ), while a fighter would have little problems with him. At higher level it becomes even worse - the fighter goes toe to toe with Ogres, Trolls or even Dragons, while most wizards stand back and throw fireballs or other ranged spells.
Fearbased abilities should be modelled more like Intimidate.
(Maybe use Caster level as Intimidate check, and a succesful check creates the result like a failed save)

Maybe it could be done with a nice fighter bonus feat:
Fearless Fighter
Prerequisite: none
Benefit: You are extremely resistant to fear. Whenever you are affected by a fear effect, the attacker must make a succesful Intimidate check to affect you. If they succeed, you can save normally against the effect. If they fail, you are immune to the effect.
Special: A character may take this feat as a fighter bonus feat.
Optional: Spellcasters may replace their Intimidate with Caster level checks, while creatures with supernatural or extraordinary fear effects may use their HD as Intimidate check

Another idea for Fighter specific feats:
"Fighter School feats". A fighter choses a school, and depending on the school, he gains certain advantages. The schools could be created by feats.
A fighter can be "member" of multiple schools.

Noble Warrior school
Prerequisite: none
Benefit: You gain Diplomacy and Knowledge (nobility) as bonus class skill to your fighter class skill list.
You may take Leadership as a fighter bonus feat, and gain a +1 bonus to your effective leadership score.
Special: A character may chose this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Cavalry school
Prerequisite: Mounted Combat
Benefit: You add a +2 competence bonus to Handle Animal and Ride checks and can take 10 on Handle Animal and Ride checks, even if in combat or otherwise threatened.
Special: A character may chose this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Martial Arts school
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: You add Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion) as bonus class skill to your fighter class skill list, and your unarmed damage becomes 1d6.
Special: A character may chose this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Urban Warrior school
Prerequisite: none
Benefit: You add Knowledge (local) and Gather Information as bonus class skill to your fighter skills. You gain a +2 bonus to listen and spot checks in urban enviroments.
Special: A character may chose this feat as fighter bonus feat.

Wilderness Warrior school
Prerequisite: none
Benefit: You add Knowledge (nature) and Survival as bonus class skill to your fighter class skill list, and gain a +2 bonus to Listen and Spot checks in wilderness enviroments.
Special: A character may chose this feat as fighter bonus feat.

Stealthy warrior school
Prerequisite: none
Benefit: You add Listen, Hide, Move Silently and Spot as bonus class skill to your fighter class skill list.
Special: A character may chose this feat as fighter bonus feat.


And here an additional one:

Bond with Mount:
Prerequisite: Mounted Combat, (Cavalry school), Ride 12 ranks
Benefit:
Once per round, if your mount is hit in melee or ranged combat, you may chose to take the hit instead of your mount, if you succeed at a Ride check against the opponents attack roll. (This is in addition to the benefit of the mounted combat feat)
Special: A character may chose this feat as a fighter bonus feat.