pawsplay
Hero
If you can force the wizard to escape, allowing the rest of his party to be slaughtered, you are already more than halfway to victory.
Fighters didn't matter after 11th level?
- Thread starter Bullgrit
- Start date
If you can force the wizard to escape, allowing the rest of his party to be slaughtered, you are already more than halfway to victory.
pawsplay
Hero
I know that my PC group stomped a level 12 lich, but was nearly annihilated by a level 10 fighter death knight.
ProfessorPain
First Post
This depends entirely on the circumstances of the encounter. If he knows the party is coming or if he is suprised. If you want the encounter to be remotely challenging you will make sure he has his protections in place. But then, if you want the fighter to be a challenge, you would make sure he amor and weapons to keep him in the fight (and there are plenty in 3E to work with). But if he does have them in place, a well rounded party at that level will have little trouble getting through the defenses. Really a single wizard is a weak opponent. He needs some meat shields to get off some good spells before he is swarmed. The point is, both of these encoutners are incredibly easy in 3E. The opponent must win initiative or it is basically over.
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Yes, of course it depends heavily on circumstances - though the easy answer is the more time the wizard has the tougher the encounter (not so with the fighter btw). If the wizard has any time at all, the party may not only be facing the wizard but because of summon monster X etc. a much larger force. If you think a single wizard is a weak opponent (especially a high level one) he is not pulling out the right spells.
pawsplay
Hero
On the other hand, if he is attacked in his own lair and loses initiative, my money is on the single fighter.
What level was your group? Liches are extremely nasty if played properly, the 15 magic and blunt damage reduction can be tough and if you get close to the mage you better have a ridiculous fort save. That said death knights have more going for them then simply being a fighter.
ProfessorPain
First Post
Again, swarming is going to drop the wizard more often than the fighter, before he can do anything effective. But it is moot anyways, since the DM is going to stack things to make the encounter challenging. He has to, because combat likethis against a sigle opponent that is a PC class and Race is going to end fast in 3E. If I am sending the party against a fighter of that level, he will have really cool weapons armor and wonderous items to keep him in play. And the battlefield is going to be laid out so that the battle lasts. If I send the party against a wizard, it will be set up so he at least has three rounds to squeeze off good spells. Summoning is great, but usually the wizard is dead the next round. The important thing for the wizard is make sure he has distance from the party, and his protection spells in place. The fighter needs items that improve his movment around the battlefield and make him really hard to hit. Both can be made into a challenging encounter. But PLaying them straight, they are both dissapointing.
Attack a wizard in his own lair? Seriously, if he doesn't see the group coming and loses there to lower level party, he's one stupid wizard. Too many opportunities for "home field advantage" for the wizard: protection circles, glyphs, guards and wards - and many many more.
ProfessorPain
First Post
I agree attacking a wizard in his own lair isn't going to be easy. But then, he is probably going to have minions in place as well. Don't get me wrong; wizards make great opponents in 3E because magic is so versatile, and the game favors spells at higher level (this is something I don't have a problem with)-- though to be fair, builds with noncasters can get pretty sick at higher levels. One of the advantages of a fighter is the ability to class dip without having to worry about loss of spell progression. Most fighters end up with a couple of other classes under their belt by that level of plat. Magic is powerful in 3E. This is something I dispute. For me it is a feature and not a flaw. I have just noticed in my games, when the party goes up against one guy cold, they swarm and in in a round or two.
The mage has options to not be alone - the fighter does not and that goes back to the matter in the OP.
The wizard can, with summoning etc. easily pull in help that can replace what the fighter does (damage, movement, meatshield etc.) maybe not 100% as effective but pretty close and he can do it quickly ( a matter of rounds). Even doing this, his effectiveness is still high as he still has many spells to harrass the party (heck if he used scrolls to summon, he's still at 100%).
The fighter has no such options to replace or compensate for the casters absense.
