Fighters didn't matter after 11th level?

What level was your group? Liches are extremely nasty if played properly, the 15 magic and blunt damage reduction can be tough and if you get close to the mage you better have a ridiculous fort save. That said death knights have more going for them then simply being a fighter.

8th level, with a 9th level dwarven scout. Honestly, I expected them to all die, as they kind of rushed to fight the lich rather than taking the path I had in mind. But by round three, they figured out how to overcome the DR, and only one character was paralyzed. The scout took a morningstar with magic weapon on it and closed with the lich, each round tumbling around him and readying an an attack to interrupt his spells, while the wizard peppered it with magic missiles.

In contrast, while fighting the death knight, the cleric's staff of healing was sundered, most of the party ended up unconscious, and the high AC halfling paladin and the scout were left to finish the job.
 

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The mage has options to not be alone - the fighter does not and that goes back to the matter in the OP.

In the lair example, both would not be alone. They would both have minions or followers.

The wizard can, with summoning etc. easily pull in help that can replace what the fighter does (damage, movement, meatshield etc.) maybe not 100% as effective but pretty close and he can do it quickly ( a matter of rounds). Even doing this, his effectiveness is still high as he still has many spells to harrass the party (heck if he used scrolls to summon, he's still at 100%).

But he only gets one cast each round. The point is, both a single fighter and a single wizard in the isolated case are going to fall quick. Even if he squeezes off the summon, he will fall the next round. He would be better off unloading his most powerful spell in the first round, or trying to escape through a teleport.

The fighter has no such options to replace or compensate for the casters absense.

He has magic items.

Again, I fully acknowledge that 3E favors magic at higher levels in a strict everyone advances to max level in a single class campaign. But this is the exception, most non-casters use incredibly powerful builds, and it can be easily managed by a good DM. Now if the example presented were not an isolated encoutner but a well planned one. I would go with the single wizard in his lair. One of the advantages of a fully powered wizard having an edge is they make great villains. But they need to be at full power. Even then, all wizards are limited by the spells they know, and have memorized. You just can't assume they know every spell in the book and will be able to use it.

But let me be clear 3E has issues. The skill system was too broad. Rankings went way too high. It would have been better to lower the max rank to ten. Magic is really powerful. But I have no problem with power balancing over time, and I still enjoy playing fighters at higher level. Either way, a decent DM can manage this. Most game systems break down in certain places, because game design is built around trade offs for balance, flavor and realism--4E is fully balanced, but for me, it trades off a lot of flavor, options and coolness in the process. I don't expect others to agree with me, but this is my experience of the two editions-- 3E favors magic at higher levels. But the trade off is it really creates cool settings and adventures. With proper DMing it isn't much of a problem to keep fighters in the game (they need the right magic items, DMs must plan encoutners carefully and all the rules of magic have to be enforced).
 

I agree attacking a wizard in his own lair isn't going to be easy. But then, he is probably going to have minions in place as well. Don't get me wrong; wizards make great opponents in 3E because magic is so versatile, and the game favors spells at higher level (this is something I don't have a problem with)--

Well yes, if there's no problem there's no need for argument :)

though to be fair, builds with noncasters can get pretty sick at higher levels. One of the advantages of a fighter is the ability to class dip without having to worry about loss of spell progression. Most fighters end up with a couple
of other classes under their belt by that level of plat.

Thus you have the "boring" problem brought up by others earlier. Magic is versatile and a mages player can do several things well - which for most people is fun. For a fighter to dominate they usually have to specialize (the tripping specialist, the charging specialist etc.) and while very effecive it gets old quick.

Magic is powerful in 3E. This is something I dispute. For me it is a feature and not a flaw. I have just noticed in my games, when the party goes up against one guy cold, they swarm and in in a round or two.

This is the economy of actions problem. No matter how ubber the single monster is, chances are he acts once to the PC's 4 actions. This means, as you say, he's going to go get swarmed and go down. This is why druids and summoners are so nasty in 3.5; they get to exploit the economy of actions with minimal effort. When you fight a Druid it's not just a spellcasting druid, It's a Druid, his dire bear companion, the dire wolvorine he summoned a round ago and his new friend the dire crockadile.
 

No love for the rogue I see. Even if you get rid of some of the restrictions on Sneak Attack (query: how many people realize a rogue can't sneak attack a humanoid creature two sizes larger than themselves by RAW?) there's still the issue of the interaction between the skill system and the spell system.

Is there any dissenting opinion that by 11th level, any decently played wizard makes a rogue superfluous outside of combat?
 

First of all, comparing a wizard to a fighter without buffs is like comparing the fighter to a wizard who does not cast spells. Buffs exist, and they tend to work extremely well with fighters. Who cares when you cast enlarge person the wizard? Second, the same effect cannot be achieved by buffing an NPC warrior or the druid's ape, unless you can figure out how to supply them with an extra half dozen feats and a suitable selection of magical weapons, armor, potions, and wondrous items. Third, reach weapon + magic oil = reach whenever you need it.


On other words, "If the party is in a D&D game." Fighters get buffed, and buffers buff fighters. Creature immunities... guess what? That's a fact of life. No one tactic is going to work on everything. This is not handicapped, any more than flying creatures are somewhere handicapping a fighter who focuses on melee.

Poison - This is a non-point. Of course it can fail. I don't see a lot of neutralize poison floating around. Fighters can often shruff off poison entirely.



On Fighters and buffs/magic
I think this boils down to personal preference. 3e fighters don't bring anything to the table outside of being the target of buff spells. If your big advantage over an NPC class is that you have more money to spend on magical gear, that's a problem. Classes from tome of battle and 4e meleeists actually have unique abilities that they bring to the table. Do they still need magic items to be better? Yes. Still need the wizards to buff/debuff? Of course. But at the end of the fight, Wizards say "Thanks for bringing something that I could not easily replicate with a spell or two (marking, different abilities from ToB). While in 3e its "Thanks for being the target for my buff spells because otherwise you would have been dead weight."

Like I said eariler, magic is the sole power in 3e. As a high level fighter, I want to be feared because of my peerless martial prowess, not because I am wearing more magic items than the enemy.

Quote
8th level, with a 9th level dwarven scout. Honestly, I expected them to all die, as they kind of rushed to fight the lich rather than taking the path I had in mind. But by round three, they figured out how to overcome the DR, and only one character was paralyzed. The scout took a morningstar with magic weapon on it and closed with the lich, each round tumbling around him and readying an an attack to interrupt his spells, while the wizard peppered it with magic missiles.
end quote

I am still unclear how ready actions is this effective.
I ready an action to attack if the lich casts anything.
The lich 5 foot steps then casts, your readied action fails to go off. Unless you are wielding a spiked chain since that is the only weapon with reach that allows you to threaten adjacent squares.
or
I ready an action to five foot step after the lich.
The lich 5 ft steps you move with him, and then the lich casts defensively. Congrats you just sacrificed your turn in hopes the lich rolls a 2 on his concentration check. (unless you have the mage slayer feat, but that's in a splat)

Also, in both your example fights, the casters made or broke the encounters. The cleric got around the DR with a spell and the party suffered terriblely once their healing got knocked down. It's the magic arms race or "Magic must defeat magic". To get around certain spells you need the counter spells. You can't beat invisiblity with a spot check you need see invisibilty. No amount of damage will ever break a wall of force. You need disintigrate. Arcane lock can only be opened by knock, it doesn't care if your open lock skill is +100. If it is not magic, no one cares.
 

No love for the rogue I see. Even if you get rid of some of the restrictions on Sneak Attack (query: how many people realize a rogue can't sneak attack a humanoid creature two sizes larger than themselves by RAW?) there's still the issue of the interaction between the skill system and the spell system.

Is there any dissenting opinion that by 11th level, any decently played wizard makes a rogue superfluous outside of combat?

Fortunately, rogues have use magic device. So they get to be useful outside of combat by casting spells out of the wands and scrolls the wizard made for him.

Also, what's this about sneak attack immune huge creatures? I know that a human assassin hiding in a bedroom at night to kill the mayor will need to turn on a light before he can sneak attack, since if there's enough concealment to hide in, there's enough concealment to make the mayor sneak attack immune. But I was unaware of the size difference. Does it have something to do about unable to reach "vulnerable parts"?
 

Clerics need to put in alot of effort to equate to fighters (by equate I mean get close to) and I have yet to see the buffed cleric thats better at fighting than a WELL made warrior and thats not even taking onto account the extra actions/ability to cope with shock troops etc the fighter gets thru not having to prep.

The problem is that all fighters do is fight. They're essentially worthless from class abilities in situations where you dont roll initiative. Unless they're just so grotesquely overpowered in combat to make up for their lack of combat utility (they're not), if anyone comes close to doing their schtick, its a system failure, since that character likely has non-combat utility.
 

This is the economy of actions problem. No matter how ubber the single monster is, chances are he acts once to the PC's 4 actions. This means, as you say, he's going to go get swarmed and go down. This is why druids and summoners are so nasty in 3.5; they get to exploit the economy of actions with minimal effort. When you fight a Druid it's not just a spellcasting druid, It's a Druid, his dire bear companion, the dire wolvorine he summoned a round ago and his new friend the dire crockadile.


But this is at least an area where fighters have something of an advantage. Where a wizard can only cast one spell, the fighter can attack multiple times as a full move.

True. But the point is, the summoner needs to summon before combat, or pull of the summons really fast and not have his spell interupted. It could go either way with them in this scenario, if they don't have their meat shields up.
 

On the other hand, if he is attacked in his own lair and loses initiative, my money is on the single fighter.
True enough, although a smart wizard would simply flee when caught by surprise and strike back when he has the advantage. The single fighter simply dies (unless he has a magic escape route himself).

I know that my PC group stomped a level 12 lich, but was nearly annihilated by a level 10 fighter death knight.
That's because death knights actually get combat abilities that are useful for them. :) The lich template, as far as combat goes, is kind of a wash - sure you get some extra defenses, but you're also undead and have no Fort save. You're also effectively immortal, which I suppose is the point, but a living wizard of the same CR is a more powerful opponent in most cases.
 

8th level, with a 9th level dwarven scout. Honestly, I expected them to all die, as they kind of rushed to fight the lich rather than taking the path I had in mind. But by round three, they figured out how to overcome the DR, and only one character was paralyzed. The scout took a morningstar with magic weapon on it and closed with the lich, each round tumbling around him and readying an an attack to interrupt his spells, while the wizard peppered it with magic missiles.

The lich couldnt figure out how to avoid a readied action? A simple 5 foot step would have foiled that...
 

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