Fighters didn't matter after 11th level?

[Runestar]

fighters and other high BAB characters can do this, and for the most part, casters can't.

I am fairly certain that casters can aim ranged touch spells (such as disintegrate, not that I have a reason to) at items to sunder them. Or simply grease them.

Trip - Not every opponent is a Large magical beast with 20 HD. NPC wizards are unlikely to win against a trip attempt, for instance. Facing a squad of drow monks? Ready an action to trip them when they try to tumble past you. And against a CR 10 giant? Having a fifty-fifty chance of tripping such an obviously unsuitable target for tripping is pretty darned good.

I would say that most of the foes actually worth tripping are (not that they are magical beasts, but that the odds tend to be stacked in their favour). In a pinch, they can still full-attack while prone (at a penalty). But tripping is great for preventing them from getting to the wizard. When it succeeds.

Spellcasters shouldn't really care if they have been tripped, since they can still cast spells (defensively) at no penalty while prone. It is a mixed bag - the fighter gets a to-hit bonus against him, but ranged attacks take a penalty.

50/50 against the giant would seem good, but it still seems a tad low to me considering all the resources I have sunk into boosting my trip check. This means that if you don't go enlarge person or improved trip, success becomes even more unlikely.

I admit to rarely ever using classed npcs in my campaign (exception being monsters with a few class lvs), so you have me there on the drow monk squad. Though I would likely just use swordsages and shadow blink to the other side.

Often asserted, never proven. In my mind, specialized = vulnerable. PCs rarely get to pick all their battles, nor is it possible to plan for every contingency.

Issue is, if you don't specialize, I don't think it is likely your fighter will get anywhere, or be any good at his chosen fields as he has spread himself too thin. Tripping is more than just taking expertise and improved trip (else, you will probably fail against most of the foes you encounter). Assuming your DM does not go out of his way to skew encounters against you, I think it might be better to just rock in 80% of those fights, and be resigned to being sup-par in 20% of the rest (or hoping that buffs can help mitigate it somewhat).

 

[pawsplay]

In reality, there was really two classes: Jedi Guardian and Jedi Consular. (Force Adept pulls a distant 3rd, the other six don't even register, though solider was the best of the last six). A Jedi (either one, actually) could out-fight a fighter (lightsabers deal a ridiculous amount of damage, ignore armor, and deflect lazer-beams. Plus, they were three-feats from the best AC in the game), consulars had every diplomatic trick a noble could pull (save for cash) and with a few spread ranks, a Jedi could pilot, camp in the wilderness, build a weapon, and do anything the other classes could.

I ran an extended d20 revised game. The Soldier was clearly more powerful in combat than a Jedi.

 

[pawsplay]

True enough, although a smart wizard would simply flee when caught by surprise and strike back when he has the advantage. The single fighter simply dies (unless he has a magic escape route himself).

That's because death knights actually get combat abilities that are useful for them. The lich template, as far as combat goes, is kind of a wash - sure you get some extra defenses, but you're also undead and have no Fort save. You're also effectively immortal, which I suppose is the point, but a living wizard of the same CR is a more powerful opponent in most cases.

Actually, all a Death Knight gets, basically, is flamestrike 1/day, a good DR score, a passable SR score, and some bonuses. Liches get paralyzing touch, at least, and their DR is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[pawsplay]

That fighters and other straight melee classes lagged well behind casters (from mid levels on up) is not something that is open for debate. It is a problem that's long been mathematically established and acknowledged by the game designers. ToB was an effort to level the playing field a bit, and was quite successful at it, but it came out 7 years into the edition. (this is more in response to insanogeddon than Pain)

Bo9S added some options in terms of special abilities, but as far as actual power curve, fighters still have an edge in melee.

 

[Remathilis]

I ran an extended d20 revised game. The Soldier was clearly more powerful in combat than a Jedi.

I guess it would depend on the build involved, but my dual-wielding ataru (form IV) with jedi guardian did stupid amounts of damage.

 

[pawsplay]

The lich couldnt figure out how to avoid a readied action? A simple 5 foot step would have foiled that...

Terrain.

 

[pawsplay]

I guess it would depend on the build involved, but my dual-wielding ataru (form IV) with jedi guardian did stupid amounts of damage.

Oh, they're good all right. It's just I will remember forever when I decided to herd the PCs along by sending thirty stormtroopers after them. The soldier said, "Don't worry, I'll hold them off." I said, "Wuh?"

The soldier then proceeded to kill thirty stormtroopers, alone, using a pair of blasters. If the Rebellion had him on their side, they could have won the battle of Hoth. And this was at, like, 6th level or something. It was absolutely sick.

 

[Starbuck_II]

I would say that most of the foes actually worth tripping are (not that they are magical beasts, but that the odds tend to be stacked in their favour). In a pinch, they can still full-attack while prone (at a penalty). But tripping is great for preventing them from getting to the wizard. When it succeeds.

50/50 against the giant would seem good, but it still seems a tad low to me considering all the resources I have sunk into boosting my trip check. This means that if you don't go enlarge person or improved trip, success becomes even more unlikely.

How come Runestar: you didn't mention spellcasters are better trippers since level 1?
Grease...anyone, Bueller, Bueller?

Grease makes you tripped (prone) if fail save + lose dex to AC unless have 5 ranks in balance check.

 

[AllisterH]

Fortunately, rogues have use magic device. So they get to be useful outside of combat by casting spells out of the wands and scrolls the wizard made for him.

You know, I see people consider this a point in the rogue's favour and I wonder why? To me, this is an acknowledgement that the only way for a rogue to compete is to be wizard-lite.

Also, what's this about sneak attack immune huge creatures? I know that a human assassin hiding in a bedroom at night to kill the mayor will need to turn on a light before he can sneak attack, since if there's enough concealment to hide in, there's enough concealment to make the mayor sneak attack immune. But I was unaware of the size difference. Does it have something to do about unable to reach "vulnerable parts"?

Exactly. The SRD explicitly mentions that you can't sneak attack "EXTREMITIES (arms and legs) so how exactly does a halfling sneak attack say a Cloud Giant when he can't even reach the giant's ankle bone? I've found that most people do't even realize this rule exists

I also personally have a problem with the undead immunity since one of WOTC's popular setting IS Ravenloft.

 

[Gunpowder]

You know, I see people consider this a point in the rogue's favour and I wonder why? To me, this is an acknowledgement that the only way for a rogue to compete is to be wizard-lite.

Oops, I failed to convene my sarcasm in that post. I do not consider that in favor of the rogue. I think of it as another example of "non-magic users don't get nice things" syndrome.